Free WiFi in Fayetteville?
Last Wednesday, mayor Lioneld Jordan’s Facebook status was the following: Lioneld Jordan is thinking about expanded broadband and free wifi…
The status created quite a buzz on Facebook. 41 people “liked” the status, and 17 people commented on it. On Wednesday, Jordan met with a group called Connect Arkansas who’s mission is to “create a competitive broadband, or high speed internet infrastructure that will not only improve personal lives, but also the economic capabilities and of all Arkansans,” and Jordan is hoping Fayetteville citizens will endorse the initiative to make free WiFi for all of Fayetteville a reality.
Free WiFi for Fayetteville is one of the items up for discussion as part of the upcoming Fayetteville Forward Summit, taking place March 31st – April 4th.
Jordan commented on Facebook, “I will be meeting with Connect Arkansas this afternoon, and it will be one of the options discussed at the upcoming Fayetteville Forward summit. I hope it will be endorsed by our citizens and incorporated into our economic development strategy, because it will help all of our people be better informed for civic and personal life.”
“We could start pilot projects for free wifi around the square and in city parks, but those ideas will depend on public support and the interest of the City council, too.”
We’ll have more on the Flyer on the Fayetteville Forward Summit over the next few weeks, but for now, we’re curious to know how Flyer readers feel about the free Wi-Fi talk. Other cities around the country are adopting similar initiatives, and (of course) we’re all for it.
I mean, imagine visiting the Farmer’s market in the downtown square and being able to sit out in front of the Town Center with a cup of coffee and a laptop to check email, update your Facebook status, and totally pwning some fool in the comments section on the Flyer all at the same time? How about on a blanket in Wilson Park on a warm spring day? Those are of course some of the positives.
What do you guys think? Is this a good way to spend our taxpayer dollars? Bad idea? Is Fayetteville ready for something like this? How could it be achieved? Would you start with the square and work your way out? Who would benefit the most from free WiFi? Could it help our downtown businesses?
It’s interesting to see all the questions that can come out of a simple Facebook status update from our mayor. Can Lioneld make this happen?
[Photo by superfem via Flickr and Creative Commons 2.0]
Comments
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Michael
March 16, 2009
Bad use of tax money imo.
sofresh-n-sogay
March 16, 2009
ditto. I’d rather upgrade my phone plan than deal with those slow dl speeds.
Total Bastard
March 16, 2009
Hmmmm. I haven’t really ever used any city-wide broadband anywhere, although I knew a few cities in California do it, and Dallas does it in city parks.
The idea sounds good to me, as it would let me get rid of another bill. But we’ll pay for it in the end. I wonder if I’ll personally pay $40.00/month for it?
If my share of the cost for it comes in less than say $200/year, then fine, lets do it.
Donkeylips
March 16, 2009
The Bees!!!
Donkeylips
March 16, 2009
What about the bees?!?!
Me
March 16, 2009
Horrible use of taxpayer money. There aren’t enough people that would use the service, and those that do don’t need the free handout since they obviously are well off enough to have a laptop with a wireless modem. Taxpayer’s shouldn’t pay a dime to make sure people can update their facebook or twitter at the park.
Johnathan
March 16, 2009
I’m kind of with TB on this one. I’d rather it be a private service that I pay for (and I would). If it were privatized there would be some expectation of quality of service. If it’s public, you pretty much get what they give you. And we all know what kind of quality the government is going to give us.
Boggy Creek Creature
March 16, 2009
Haven’t you people seen Johnny Mnemonic?
This free wifi will kill us all!
Henry Rollins warned against this, but no one listens to Henry Rollins
Till it’s too late
Thomas
March 16, 2009
Am I in the minority that thinks the entire country should be wifi enabled?
Dustin
March 16, 2009
Interesting comments. Keep them coming. Playing devil’s advocate here, what about the money that could be saved on internet service if WiFi was free? To Total Bastard’s point, if it cost less in taxes than what you pay your ISP every month, would that make a difference?
Connection speed is definitely extremely important. If it’s dialup slow, then count me out as well.
unicorn
March 16, 2009
I was one of the folks who originally commented on lioneld facebook message, and I’m gonna say the same thing here. Aren’t there better things we could spend our tax money on?
sidewalks?
burying the powerlines?
George
March 16, 2009
BCC…..When Henry Rollins speaks, we should all listen!
“Ghost Rider motor cycle hero
Baby baby baby he’s screamin’ the truth
America America’s killin’ its youth”
Yeah, connection speed is a biggie. Cost is an issue as well. I can’t say for sure if I’m for it or against it unless I know the particulars.
It certainly seems like a good idea though. We all know Cox (and many other) service providers are total rip-off artists. Anything that allows me to pay them less money is a good thing. Again, as long as it is a comparable price & service. I’d love to tell them to shove their Cox Bundle up their collective arse.
We have been moving closer to the point where internet access should be universal if possible. Yes I know, damn me and my socialism.
Kudos to Mayor Jordan for entertaining the idea.
Total Bastard
March 16, 2009
I wish Henry Rollins was my dad.
Yes, quality/speed and cost per taxpayer is important.
Since Cox pretty much has a monopoly on true high speed internet in this town, lets do it. Maybe they’ll reduce their rates when everybody drops them.
There’s gotta be some economies of scale with this. I’d be fine with it being a subscription service, too. Get a password, or something. But then what would stop people from just sharing a password?
There’s an added benefit which is the “oh, cool” factor that will make Fayetteville more attractive to businesses considering relocating here, as well as young creative people.
Will Don Marr be secretly reading my email?
If so that would be great. I am pretty sure he just deletes it now when he sees Total Bastard in his inbox.
Todd
March 16, 2009
I’d be willing to pony up for Fayetteville to have free WiFi at a reasonable tax rate. I wouldn’t expect it to be blazing fast. Nor would I ever entertain the idea of canceling my home service or my AT&T iPhone plan. I’d use it on the square. I’d use it on Dickson Street. I’d use it at Wilson Park. So would tourists.
As for better uses of our tax money, I seriously doubt this would be placed in front of other necessities like sidewalks. As for burying the power lines, at $1 million per mile, we’d probably have to give up nearly everything to be able to afford that.
ARKinOK
March 16, 2009
Got to agree with Todd here. Sounds pretty progressive. Think about the day you are in KC or some other place that did this and you are asking yourself, ” WTF…Fayetteville had a shot at this and we passed”. Don’t you folks over in Arkansas want to join the 21st century? Still kickin’ and screamin’ I guess.
Me
March 16, 2009
Dustin – You pose the question of “What if it costs less than I pay for internet now” but I think that is besides the point. That doesn’t justify using tax money to reduce my personal bills. Whatever I may spend for internet is my choice; what about the person that doesn’t have internet becuase they can’t afford it? With this rule, they will pay for internet service for their neighbor. I could argue this point for about every social service, but whereas you can argue that other programs like education benefit all of society, I don’t think this fits the bill. I personally don’t want the governement using taxpayer money for something so unnecessary.
ARKinOK
March 16, 2009
Me- Mark the day you made the statement the internet is unnecessary.
Me
March 16, 2009
ARKinOK – The day has been marked. You could say the same thing about the personal computer in general, but I don’t think we should rely on the government for those either – not outside of the classroom at least.
Total Bastard
March 16, 2009
I think spending $1million to bury a mile of power lines from Center Street north would be money well spent.
That view of Old Main from downtown is worth way more than $1million to the city of Fayetteville.
dugrrr
March 16, 2009
I have a concern:
Since a computer’s MacID can be spoofed, do free hotspots give internet predators an anonymous connection? If so, would this make the city liable?
I’m all for free and pervasive wifi if this isn’t an issue.
sidewalks are being worked on…
burying lines, even just along College Ave., would be of a monumental scope compared to this…
unicorn
March 16, 2009
Todd – it’s not that I think wifi would necessarily be prioritized over sidewalks, I just see it as an extraneous expenditure, and not one that we’d likely see a return from (*other than making the city a neater place to live, of course.) I don’t see it helping tourism or increasing local business in anyway – maybe, but I just dont see it.
As for the cost of powerlines being buried. I don’t mean every one by any means – but along major roads, absolutely worth it. It would increase property values and vistas, it’d mean that we’d have fewer days of business being forced to remain closed because of lack of power, and it’d mean that in the event of another ice storm (which, on a long enough timeline, is inevitable) we’d be spending less as a city on 24hr emergency electric crews.
/soapbox
ARKinOK
March 16, 2009
Me – You made your point. Long live the internet and free access.
Dustin
March 16, 2009
@me – That’s a fair point. Thinking about it, I agree with Todd in that it probably shouldn’t be a substitute for your home service.
I do still see a value in having free WiFi for the city of Fayetteville, and I think it could be achieved for a relatively small amount of money. I think there are several people who could benefit from it (students, tourists, businesses)
What if the costs were subsidized by something other than citizen tax dollars? There’s more than one way to cover these kinds of costs.
Jcentennial
March 16, 2009
You gotta be kidding. You’d choose buried powerlines over citywide wifi? One that makes things slightly prettier vs one that unlocks the potential of a city (students, business travelers, tourists, etc.)
That’s incredibly silly.
Michael
March 16, 2009
And who would be providing the backhaul for this tax paid wifi? None other than Cox or ATT. As far as costs go, there’s more than just bandwidth (which if done right on the capacity side wouldn’t be an exactly cheap recurring expenditure), there’s initial hardware purchase, replacement of hardware over time, salaries for the newly created positions to setup and maintain the APs, routers, switches and other hardware, the inevitable filtering software…
I can’t see the benefits of municipal wifi outweighing the costs. Cheap, fast reliable, pick two.
George
March 16, 2009
Of course their are multiple costs involved. All the costs of running a business. One HUGE cost you can remove is the massive markup that the private service provider takes.
Does anyone know how much of a correlation there is between speed and cost when it come to WiFi? I don’t. I’ve heard that speed of cable internet is retricted based on your plan. So basically they reduce your maximum speed if you don’t pay more. Obviously the hardware is the same. It’s all running through the same lines. Perhaps there are things involved that I don’t understand, but that always seemed like a slap in the face to me.
Let’s not just write it off without knowing all the details. Change is hard sometimes. The visionaries work through it.
Where’s Matthew Petty? What’s your take on this one?
Linton
March 16, 2009
The only cities in which I’ve used municipal wifi are Louisville, KY and Springfield, MO. In both cities, it was much too expensive to cover the whole city so only a section was covered. In both instances, the speed was pretty bad and the signal strength in most places was fairly poor. Google municipal wifi and check out the costs. They are very expensive systems.
If the goal is to spend some taxpayer money to improve the quality of life in a downtown area and stimulate economic activity, there are better uses of the money. Just today I read in the March 9-22 edition of Joplin Tri-State Business that Pittsburgh, KS has done a series of projects designed to spruce up their downtown area. Businesses gladly offer free wifi when they have lots of customers.
g.b.
March 16, 2009
@Jcentennial: I think the recent ice storm justifies the suggestion of buried powerlines being a more urgent priority for city funding. Rolling Hills (with its “slightly prettier” buried lines lost electric for a couple of minutes, tops.
What real advantage would this give Fayetteville? Free wi-fi is accessible through coffeeshops, the library, and restaurants all over town. Do we really need to bring a laptop on a picnic?
dugrrr
March 16, 2009
A municipal deployment could easily be setup for basic usage (ie. email & text-based websites). FTP downloads, streaming video and other bandwidth hogs can be filtered out so that the max number of people (such as during a busy farmers’ market) can make use of it.
(still wondering about liability)…
MANIMAL
March 16, 2009
Now here is something to ponder
Even if the Wifi speeds are acceptable….will I be able to “chillax” in front of the town center and torrent some phish live albums?
or how about casually downloading pornography?
Michael
March 16, 2009
@George
There would still be the service provider markup, it’d be tacked onto whatever the city paid Cox or ATT from tax revenues rather than being on the individual resident’s bill. And in addition you’re adding on the cost of government inefficiency.
With 802.11G hardware, real world throughput per radio is roughly 33Mbps in good conditions. As interference, obstructions and distance from the radio increases bandwidth decreases typically in a very non-linear fashion.
802.11N promises 600Mbps in lab settings, but I haven’t seen any real world numbers though if it behaves similarly in real world scenarios as 802.11A/B/G real world performance should be in the ballpark of 366Mbps. The problem with 802.11N is that it is STILL not a ratified standard (promising December 2009 for ratification currently) so there is limited support from enterprise hardware vendors.
Having spec’d out, purchased hardware/software and implemented a wireless network on the scale of a few school buildings, I think I know the details of what’s involved to provide a network capable of handling multiple high bandwidth users (streaming audio/video was a big requirement), and being reliable. Trust me in saying it is not cheap.
SteezyDeezy
March 16, 2009
It’s a great idea and we’re not talking about a huge roll-out here. City wide? Not a chance. Public gathering spaces could definitely be pounded with some 2.4GHz and would be another tool for information workers, tourists, students, etc.
Let’s just don’t get into a debate about antennas….. We don’t want miniature fake pine trees antennas popping up all over town. East Fayetteville is already lucky enough to have one big enough for us all ;) Honestly you’d be hard-pressed to even locate an access point / antenna today.
Manimal… SSH tunnel to your favorite proxy and chillax all ya want.
Total Bastard
March 16, 2009
Could we just come to a gentleman’s agreement that every fourth house on the block has wireless, doesn’t make it secure, and that the neighbors on either side and behind that person gives him 10 bucks a month?
Problem solved. Work together, people.
I’d pay $100 bucks to the city if they’d find a way to bury those stupid power lines that SWEPCO put up along the railroad tracks downtown. They need to be buried down Leverett, too. Talk about instant ghetto.
There’s been talk of burying the powerlines along College Avenue for at least 15 years. I really think it would be a worthwhile investment for the city. College has the potential to be a really pretty street.
Total Bastard
March 16, 2009
Sorry, a.brown. I mean “gentleperson’s agreement”.
chris c
March 16, 2009
Let’s put it in shallower terms.
Bentonville has it for their old downtown area. We’re better than Bentonville, so we should have it, too.
Dede Peters
March 16, 2009
The Fayettville Downtown Square is set for wireless, but the group holding it has yet to make it available to the public. Perhaps you’ve seen it – its called FFW. I’m not sure what the hold-up is, I’ll ask.
Linton
March 17, 2009
Though it may not be ok with your ISP to use something like a Fon router, a person could do something like that if they wanted to share ‘net access with neighbors/customers and do it really cheap. http://www.fon.com
I thought I’d mention it ’cause the discussion seemed to turn a bit in the direction of alternatives to municipal wifi.
sofresh-n-sogay
March 17, 2009
Cost is going to be ridiculous, especially in regards to maintenance. At that, what resources will the city throw at this to fix the service when it crashes? The UofA has plenty of resources yet for the past couple weeks the network has been regularly dropping out and still no fix. That is a lot of $$$$.
I’ve stayed at many fine and not-so-fine hotels that offer free wifi, and it truly is a struggle to enjoy the service which provides impossibly slow speeds and constant dropouts, even when the hotel is void of guests. The sad thing is, I’m not trying to stream video, just find local attractions; it isn’t worth an hour of cursing the computer when I could just go to the concierge or pick up a local circular. My point…people will not be satisfied with the dl speeds of free wifi, especially given what most of us are accustomed to expect in terms of service and speed.
The people that would benefit from free wifi, generally don’t need it. More and more people have data plans on their phone, so they can do without free wifi; you can identify some of these turds as they light up a darkened theater to twitter and text. There are also those people who don’t have a laptop, thus this service is useless, or hopefully there are those people who don’t feel the need to take their computer to the park or to dinner. Seriously, ENJOY the park. ENJOY your dinner. Living a few moments without a computer or cell may seem difficult, but they aren’t pace makers and respirators, you CAN live a few hours without them and still enjoy life. That said, plenty of businesses offer free wifi, and those that charge for the service at least offer decent dl speeds. If a restaurant doesn’t have wifi, boo-hoo, eat your dinner.
I had to have an intervention with my good friend. She got so bad with her phone that she would not be engaged in any conversation because she had to text and update her blog. The rest of the world needs an intervention. I see parents turning network tv on for their children in their suvs even when they are driving a mere five minutes down the road; I see families sitting at restaurants with all their children playing on gameboys throughout the entire meal. Two points with this: 1) people who would use the wifi, don’t need it…they already have plenty to keep them entertained, and 2) is this where we are heading? *shrug *facepalm People may feel engaged with information when they have their computers open but they are missing the experience of the rest of the world.
Given the way we are heading it comes as no surprise that I appreciate the sign that the employees of Arsaga’s have at their registers asking for a customer to give them a small courtesy, don’t be on the phone when ordering; I don’t know how well it works, but sadly, the equivalent projected sign at movie theaters doesn’t have the desired effect. People still light up their phones because two hours without a phone is like waterboarding to them. These communication and data technologies are becoming more of an irritant than a worthwhile service, and while that isn’t an extremely valid reason for not wanting free wifi, I see free wifi as more of a nuisance, for poor speed/service to cost ration and user douchery.
George
March 17, 2009
@Michael – I’m humbled by your geeky knowledge. Admittedly I am not an expert on the linearity of bandwidth decrease due to interference and distance.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe the costs totally outweigh the benefits. Sofresh makes some great points above. Is there really that much of a benefit to having universal accessibility? There may be such a thing as too much access.
I just can’t help but think there is a certain intangible element to this. I have really seen/felt Fayetteville developing a certain distinct character over the last few years. It’s like our town has been struggling to find itself, but may finally have some momentum. I can’t pinpoint it. It’s the green movement…it’s the music/entertainment scene…it’s the students better integrating with the rest of the town. Does anyone else know what the hell I’m talking about here? Maybe not. Regardless, the idea of universal WiFi seems to fit into this mold. Maybe just conceptually…..maybe it isn’t practical, but I’d like to entertain it.
Total Bastard
March 17, 2009
Fayetteville’s definitely “coming into its own” in a sense. I know what you’re talking about. Its like a new vibe buzzing around this town, and this town is always full of surprises. Fayetteville is optimistic, forward-thinking, and finally not afraid to be itself.
Its something I understand when I see a bustling Ozark Natural Foods store, and a resurgent music scene, a renewing Walker Park and South Fayetteville, an expanding entertainment scene all around.
Its finally mainstream cool to be local and proud of Fayetteville, Arkansas.
I think maybe the metro has reached a tipping point to where people are finally realizing how much our countryside and natural areas mean to us, and not just the hippies.
Or maybe its just that Fayetteville’s been awesome all along and now people regionally are starting to get it, and move here.
I have met several people recently who moved here from Austin, as Austin loses more and more of what made it cool in the first place.
Johnathan
March 17, 2009
I’m changing my vote to a hard ‘no’ on the the city wifi thing. The others are right about it being easy to get mobile high speed internet if you need it.
Now, what the city could invest in is infrastructure. How about running fiber throughout the ville so we can get some true high speed internet, like Verizon’s Fios? Now that would help propel Fayetteville into the 21st century.
Also, invest in technology to make the city’s website more useful and user friendly.
Total Bastard
March 17, 2009
I’m convinced, too J.
There are other things we need to do in this city besides WiFi.
Spend a million burying powerlines from North St to Township. Thats about a mile, right? While they’re burying those, put in some fiber.
Plus it plays right into us developing that Midtown district.
five by five
March 19, 2009
forget this wifi nonsense. if they wanna juice-up downtown, why doesn’t the city open up a Chick-Fil-A in the OPO?
Dustin
March 19, 2009
@five by five – I think jawikst would agree with you.
Gerry
March 19, 2009
I worked on a plan to deliver the same service to Philly and Seattle.
It will be more expensive than originally claimed, and there will be growing pains once implemented (if chosen).
I think there are much better uses for our tax money.
Matthew Petty
March 21, 2009
Ok, someone asked for my comment… (someone should email me about these things. I don’t read every post on the Flyer…)
The geek in me dreams of city-wide WiFi, net neutrality, and saving money on mobile plans by using VoIP applications… but that is years and years away.
Here’s where I want WiFi: the square and the parks, 71B Corridor, and the I540 corridor. Why? I want bus systems (and rail) with wifi access on them. I don’t think city-wide wifi is feasible, and I’ve talked with the administration about it. As someone said earlier, I am more in favor of infrastructure investment. I think we should roll out fiber, but when it comes down to it, I think mobile infrastructure is more important. I want to see a beefed up 3G network and a commitment to the next technology when it goes mainstream.
Total Bastard has a good idea about setting up informal Internet coops. I provide free service with a DD-WRT router to a half block.
Dede Peters
March 21, 2009
I’m currently using wifi via a router embedded in a painting that is in an artist’s studio above the gallery. I love this. Sharing technology and art.
Matthew Petty
March 22, 2009
Is that one of Tom Hapgood’s?
Citizen_XIII
March 28, 2009
why wait for the city to do it? My wireless router can see 16 individual networks, all with some kind of connection to the net. I share my connection (DD-WRT also) if we all start repeating each others signals we can blanket the town with wireless and NOT have government interference.
07stiltd
May 17, 2009
How about we take the money that would be used for this and start improving the streets in Fayetteville? The majority of major thoroughfares in Fayettville are in need of serious repair or expansion.
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