Fayetteville Speaks: Students are neighbors, too
I vote in Fayetteville elections. I pay Fayetteville city taxes. I enjoy using Fayetteville’s parks and trails. By all measures, I have been a Fayettevillian for almost four years.
I also happen to be a student.
The hot topic is the re-zoning of the sale barn lot and the ensuing outrage over where Fayetteville will bury its veterans that pass on in the third, fourth, and subsequent decades of this century. But a tangential issue, and the one that got this author’s dander up, is the idea that somehow students make poor neighbors and bad residents of this city.
For almost four years I have tried to be a good steward of Fayetteville and have praised its merits to the rest of the state. My background is in central Arkansas and I don’t know a person in that part of the state that hasn’t heard from me at least once how great our funky little city is.
Photo of cartoon from 7/6/09 Democrat-Gazette
But it doesn’t seem like other residents of Fayetteville want to reciprocate. In fact, Lt. Col. Jim Buckner indicated that students would be “the worst possible neighbor to our veterans,” and we also learned from an editorial cartoon on Monday that college students can reasonably be portrayed as the prototype embodied by John Belushi in Animal House.
Frankly, as the son of a veteran and a big fan of the heritage and history promoted by the Fayetteville National Cemetery, I was inclined to side with the groups seeking to reject the re-zoning. However, the vitriolic sentiment that somehow students would be the “worst possible neighbor” to the national cemetery makes me think some Fayetteville residents haven’t given much thought to what students mean to this community, regardless of the outcome of this property’s zoning. In fact, it makes you wonder if the proponents of the cemetery’s acquisition of this property wouldn’t cling to anything that they thought would help their cause.
As neighbors, we make up around one-third of Fayetteville’s population during the year.
As neighbors, we help pay for the roads, schools, trails, and parks in this city.
As neighbors, we patronize local restaurants, listen to music at local venues, and buy produce from local farmers.
And as neighbors we send young men and women overseas to fight for our county. In May, I watched one of my closest friends become an officer of the United States Army – a graduate of the UA ROTC program and now a Second Lieutenant in the infantry. I think he and dozens of other UA cadets know a thing or two about being good neighbors and respecting our military heroes. And I think to name them among “the worst possible neighbor(s)” is not only irresponsible, but ignorant.
That’s not to say there aren’t bad neighbors in Fayetteville. Some students play their music too loud, are destructive and obnoxious, and do indeed exhibit poor citizenship. But that’s more indicative of a lack of cooperation and communication between the University and the city than it is an indictment of college students as a whole.
As an economic unit and as a huge part of the social funkiness of Fayetteville, students deserve the respect they earn by shopping here, volunteering here, and quite often choosing to settle here. So cut us some slack when it comes to this re-zoning. Make it about the veterans.
Because at the end of the day, we all love this city and want to do what’s best for it, and for our heroes in uniform.
Will Watson
Fayetteville
Fayetteville Speaks is your chance to express opinions and ideas for possible publication here on the Fayetteville Flyer. The opinions expressed here are not those of the Fayetteville Flyer. See our submissions page for full guidelines.
Comments
The Fayetteville Flyer doesn't necessarily condone the comments here, nor does it review every post. Read our full policy.
mjordan4343
July 8, 2009
Amen, brutha
unicorn
July 8, 2009
word.
Larry Ash
July 8, 2009
Will you are right on. The vets make a tactical error with that comment. The problem they and the neighbors face is that the developer plans the equivalent of a long-term, single room occupancy hotel. He HOPES to get students, but by law MUST rent to all comers. That means all kinds of traffic and crazyness is in store for the cemetery and the neighbors.
OTOH, hitting students over the head was wrong, and you did a great job of making that point.
Christopher Spencer
July 8, 2009
Good points made, Will. The derogative language belittles the contribution of students and wouldn’t be tolerated if another group were being targeted. A student rebuttal is appropriate.
Megan
July 8, 2009
Hear hear Will! Well said sir, on behalf of all of us.
justin
July 8, 2009
Does this guy live near the Meadowlands? That would explain it.
I had a neighbor who was a meth head. Police came by twice to drag guns out of his apartment, TWICE. Can I object to rezoning for housing that will attract guys with teardrop tattoos?
Mullva
July 9, 2009
Will, you make a lot of good points.
The unfortunate part is that the “Good” college kids are out numbered by the “Dumb***” frat boys,sorority girls, and general slackers with no respect toward just about anything.
10 years ago I had the EXACT same arguments why college students got little respect as a student at the University of Missouri in Columbia.
The truth of the matter is that my opinion has changed in that 10 years. Yes we were neighbors of all those citizens, but all of the neighbors did not treat the city equally.
If your honest with yourself, you cannot say that the neighbors of College Park apartments are the same as Covington Park subdivision neighbors. Do a search on crime stats in the city. You will find an over index of murder in the Colonial Arms (used to be Law Quad) and a few other complexs on Leverett. This is the bad perception of college students who most fill these residents, but it is also reality. Yes, the vets are over generalizing the entire student population, but so is your article by calling out (for the most part) the opposite.
Placing another crappy, cookie cutter Lindsay apartments that will have little maintence, and a short term cash cow approach next to the Cemetary that was started in 1867 is not the answer. Behind the sale barn is a neighborhood, not other apartment complexes or multi-family dwellings.
This isn’t to say that we should not be working housing of all types in Fayetteville, just not right next to each other.
burgerboy
July 9, 2009
Yeah, Mullva is right. While there are definitely conscientious students who are trying to be good citizens, a lot of college kids (and college-aged kids who aren’t in school) tend to be reckless, loud, etc. I have a few college kids in my neighborhood, and while they don’t throw big parties, they do have band practice a lot. It doesn’t occur to them to not be playing heavy bass lines at 11 pm when everybody else is trying to get to sleep, or winding down watching Conan. Part of that is because they’re young. Part of that is because they aren’t homeowners and don’t have any stake in the neighborhood. If their neighbors don’t like them, it doesn’t matter. They are leaving in a few months, anyway.
I have had other college student neighbors throw beer bottles over the fence into my yard (or their guests did. to me it makes no difference) and things like that you just don’t get from actual adult neighbors.
Not only that, kids like to drive around with their LOUD music bumping out of their car stereos. That drives me nuts. Nobody over the age of 30 (unless they’re seriously developmentally challenged) pulls **** like that.
I was once a college student, and I pulled a lot of the same stuff. I have a hard time remembering why I was the way I was. Its been several years. I guess its just called “growing up”.
I do think a few smaller rental units would work great at this location, if care is given to making the buildings a part of the community and not a giant “complex”. I’d hate to see College Park duplicated here if I were a resident. Something along the lines of The Cotton District in Starkville, MS would be a nice addition to the neighborhood. http://www.thecottondistrict.net/
Will Watson
July 9, 2009
Hi again, neighbors,
It is preposterous to say that the “bad apples” in the student community outnumber the ones who exhibit good citizenship, proper residential etiquette, and consideration to their neighbors.
As I stated in the letter, my natural inclination is to oppose upsetting the historic nature of the national cemetery with a residential rezoning. However, as the city must do and as we as citizens must do, there should be absolutely no consideration given to who would be living in said residences. The city should do what is best for the city. End of story.
But you go too far when you claim that a majority of students fall into the disruptive, “bad neighbor” category. You are at your leisure to label “frat boys” and “sorority girls” as part of the problem (although I don’t necessarily agree), but considering Greeks make up somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% of our student body, the claim that most students exhibit the behaviors that you attribute to them doesn’t really hold water.
Again, I take serious offense at this claim that somehow students are overwhelmingly Bluto-like, bass-thumping alcoholics that have nothing better to do than leave their beer cans on your front lawn and knock over your mailbox. We live in a college town. As I pointed out before, this comes with the assumption that Fridays are going to be a little louder, traffic is going to be a little rougher, and the football games that bring millions of dollars in revenue to our town are going to be logistical nightmares for getting anywhere in the city.
As for the complaints you offer about college students, there are an equal number that we have about the non-student population. We don’t like it that you drive below the speed limit. We don’t like it that you let your kids yell in a restaurant when we’re trying to enjoy a meal, or play in the middle of the street, or cross through our yards to meet their friends. We don’t like it when your yard sale puts a dozen strangers’ cars blocking entrance to our neighborhoods and our driveways.
And we definitely don’t like it that your lawn mower wakes us up at 7am on a Saturday morning.
But we are neighbors, and those are the facts of life. If you are prejudiced against the living standards of college students, don’t live near them. But our tax dollars and our presence in this community are part of the lifeblood of Fayetteville, our home for at least four years and maybe more.
Fayetteville is a diverse city, and that diversity is increased by the students who give the University of Arkansas life, and make our town vibrant and active. I think anyone who considers students among the “worst neighbors possible” needs to do some serious questioning of what kind of community we are fostering.
burgerboy
July 9, 2009
Will said: “Again, I take serious offense at this claim that somehow students are overwhelmingly Bluto-like, bass-thumping alcoholics that have nothing better to do than leave their beer cans on your front lawn and knock over your mailbox.”
Nobody said that.
I said that some of those things have happened, and they have all been the doing of students or “young people”. Thats a fact. Be offended if you want to. Its not 35 year olds with families who speed down my street blasting Lil Wayne at 11 pm.
The transient nature of college students makes them less considerate neighbors on average. That has been my experience, and it was true about me and my contemporaries when I was a college student myself.
To be fair, though, I have an adult neighbor who seems to let his dog loose every single day to **** in my yard.
But other than that, most of my adult, home-owning neighbors are practically invisible to me, as I am to them. Its natural to be more considerate of people who share a boundary with you and the property you spent $150k buying.
Its not as simple as ending a lease and finding a new roommate to leave “if you don’t like it” and thats exactly why there’s a difference in how homeowners behave vs. how renters behave, on average.
I’m sure my college-aged neighbors consider themselves to be exemplary neighbors, who only get “loud and drunk once in a while”. I agree with them for the most part.
Its that “once in a while” of showing disregard and disrespect for my peace and quiet and my property rights that separates them from the rest of my neighbors.
Thats all it takes.
You’ll understand when you get old, too.
Matt Petty
July 10, 2009
Once in a while, my homeowning neighbors like to fire up the table saw early in the morning and get to work. Quite annoying, but well within their rights, and I don’t begrudge them for getting to work early.
My other homeowning neighbor keeps her dogs fenced in but doesn’t show them attention so they never stop barking.
And yet I’m a renter, and I can’t tell you how many neighbors have approached me and thanked me for turning our run down yard into a garden.
New homeowning neighbors moved in across the corner and dropped f-bombs for three hours late last night on their porch.
None of my neighbors are students.
Do I live in an alternate universe?
burgerboy
July 10, 2009
No, but I’d consider you to be an exceptional neighbor. I had renters across the street from me who were great neighbors. The guy helped me with some projects. They were never loud. They took care of their place.
Maybe its just my street, but none of my homeowner neighbors are a-holes. I wouldn’t call my student neighbors a-holes, either. Just more prone to making noise that I can hear inside my house once in a while. That was also true of the latino construction workers before them, who were in the same 18-25 age bracket.
I have no idea what kind of music my homeowner neighbors like, but my younger neighbors, I know.
Stereotypes don’t usually work, but they don’t invent themselves, either.
Michael
July 10, 2009
I’ve had good and bad experiences with students/early 20-somethings as neighbors, my observation has been if more than 3 are living at a residence they’re likely to be bad neighbors. Individually they may be nice people, but collectively they make tend poor neighbors.
West Ave-Kathy
July 10, 2009
Honestly, it was a very poor choice of words. Everyone says things and then later realize it was a poor choice of words. Its good to read an agreeable discussion about it, kindness goes a long way.
I was an a apartment manager for 7 years on N. Oakland Ave. I almost exclusively rented to students–this was my preference because they made the best tenants! Since I also have 5 kids, all of whom have gone to UofA I could relate to the students I rented to. My philosophy on raising kids is different than most, so it was easy to transfer that onto my student renters. I believe in treating someone with kindness and respect, even when I had to ask someone to turn their music down or pay their rent–I made a lot of young friends that way.
My problem is not with the people who will rent, but this model of renting by the room. I feel it will not be a good experience for the kids. From the reviews that I have read at http://www.apartmentratings.com/rate/TX-Nacogdoches-The-Grove.html, it seems like all Campus Crest complexes have similar problems. the rent to anyone, and it appears that they do not check out references, read the reviews.
Also, a small neighborhood like this will not be able to handle all the increased traffic 500+ cars will bring. I say 500+ because what about people visiting there. Students habits are different than say a couple with one child. A typical college student will probably be driving in and out of complex several times a day. To school, back home, to work, back home, to library to study, back again, have friends over, out to get something to eat etc. Remember I have 5 kids and they lived with me at various times during their College days. Nothing wrong with this schedule, its just the way it is. Three separate students living together that do not know each other, each have their own car, their own habits, and their own friends etc. Compare to a couple/1 kid–probably 2 cars, go to work, come home, store, get a movie. Of course there could be many variable to this, I am generalizing to make my point.
It just does not fit with the neighborhood–the density is too high! Three stories high to boot, next to small modest homes.
Lastly, I really do not want to see college kids get into roommate situations that are not agreeable–that bothers me. When I rented to 2 friends/1 apt. it was hard enough for them to get along sometimes–doesn’t matter if you are a student or not, roommate situations can be quite sticky.
I do not feel that this company is socially responsible. Their only intent is to create a cash cow for themselves. Think about it, each room rents for about $500. X 3 = $1500.for a 1,200 sq.ft. apt.–this is what they told us. Th going rate for a 2bd. apt in Fayetteville is $535. They also told us they have to do this density to satisfy their investors–they said that at our neighborhood meeting! If you want a video of this, I can supply.
I will be on the edge of my seat until a decision is made. Oh by the way, I play my music very loud, always have.
Thanks for reading.
West Ave-Kathy
July 10, 2009
Couple last thoughts. Developers are just not interested in building 1 bedroom apts to fill a real need in this town. So many students were always looking for that, but it does not make a developer much money. All they are interested in anymore is massive complexes, which by the way do not belong next to a small neighborhood. These massive complexes belong in a different area like behind Sonic on MLK. A place close to U of A, away from neighborhoods, convenient to students, better choice of good infill development. Good infill for the sale barn area would be owner occupied condos mixed with small office, a few apartments, etc. I think when city planners created DG zone, it was this they had in mind. I wish they could amend this zone that would prohibit massive complexes, or just make another zone that would fit transition better from main st to a small neighborhood like ours. But there is only one zone for both instances. So when you have a large tract of land like the Sale Barn of course it was doomed to get a big complex, that is all developers want to build anymore, they have to, to make a profit.
Also, I have personally talked to one of the board of directors of the transportation dept of University. They do not have a budget to extend the only ONE bus (orange line I think) on the closest route to this proposed complex. They will not even go to the Hill Ave complex, only would agree to as far as light across MLK, and then turn north. Those students will have to cross MLK to catch bus, thank goodness there is a light there.
So what will Campus Crest residents do to get to school??????
burgerboy
July 11, 2009
I really think that the zoning will be beneficial to the area.
I don’t think that the complex will be approved, even if the zoning is approved.
I have confidence that this new council will stop rubber stamping large complexes. Since this is form-based zoning, it will be next to impossible for a “complex” to be approved, unless the city council ignores its own zoning classifications.
If this developer wants to build here, they will have to rethink their normal floor plans to fit the requirements of DG.
I hope they buy the land, the sale barn guy gets his $. Then they refuse to budge on their design, get denied, then sell the land at a lower price to a better local developer. Everybody wins, except the out of town developer. :)
Matthew Petty
July 11, 2009
That’s how Downtown General is supposed to work, but it’s a new zoning and has only been tested a few times.
If this is approved, I hope the developers will go the extra mile to build something Fayetteville finds extraordinary, instead of ticky tacky.
West Ave-Kathy
July 12, 2009
Since the zoning has only been tested a few times, then here is a very unique situation that it does not always work sometimes. How often does such a large tract become available right in the middle of a neighborhood (usually its a few lots), just ripe for the picking by a large developer. If the zoning does go through, Campus Crest WILL get approval. Apparently once the zoning is in place, you can not tell the landowner that he can’t build on his land what the zoning allows. Zoning does allow exactly what they have proposed to us at two neighborhood meetings. 192 apts/512 residents, rented out by the bedroom. I was told by the city attorney that he will have to advise the council to approve it.
A complex does fit into DG. Sure we can make them jump through hoops, but in the end they will build it. This company only builds this model of complex. They told us that at the neighborhood meeting. They said they have to satisfy their investors. They do not build green–they told us that too! I have the dvd to prove it. According to the online reviews, many people complained about cheap materials, poor building standards, thin walls–that transfer noise easily.
It does not fit in with “keep Fayetteville funky”. Sure I have visions too of what you are talking about. I love smart urban design, green, etc. When I fixed up my house I went the extra mile to make my house energy efficient. I wanted to show that even if you spend modestly it could be done.
I have visioned about what I would like to see there, but that would mean the city buying–and that is not possible. That piece of land sits up on a hill, you can see all of Fayetteville from there-well almost. It is a very unique piece of property.
But I have looked at countless reviews & other cities problems that have occurred with this company–they are too numerous to ignore. All the stories are similar.
I too wish that Campus Crest would build something extraordinary for us, but I don’t think it will happen.
I guess I sound so adamant about this because I am the one that will live next to this, sorry about that. But I do love a good debate-I do not mean any disrespect to anyone, I hope I do not sound too harsh.
West Ave-Kathy
July 12, 2009
One more thing. The developer got up at the meeting and said they would build a 25′ buffer zone. (25′ is not much.) But read what happened in Asheville NC.
http://www.ourasheville.org/050201_campus_crest.html
excerpt: A developer’s spokesman lied to the Asheville City Council and the general public, under oath, three times in a row, last August. He said that an 80 foot wide vegetated buffer on the property of the planned Campus Crest apartment complex WOULD BE LEFT INTACT (see meeting excerpt below). He showed photos from different nearby house lots and repeated the pledge. When site work started, the developer immediately cut down most of the buffer and bulldozed the area.
OK–I will get off my soapbox about how I do not like this company. But I do think a developer should be scrutinized by the city.
Matt Petty
July 12, 2009
Kathy – You’re right about the big picture plans of Campus Crest being allowed in Downtown General.
But you’re wrong about the designs they’ve already showed you. We simply don’t allow designs like that to be built in Downtown General, and if they haven’t already made significant changes, they will soon if this is passed.
And as Kit informed us, we can’t consider anything a developer says as being reliable unless it’s provided contractually in writing. I think the examples you provide emphasize that, and we are being skeptical of Campus Crest.
West Ave-Kathy
July 12, 2009
Matt,
You say that the city does not allow designs like that, but they will still allow 192 units I am assuming. correct me if I am wrong, or let’s clarify that w/planning commission.
Its the density that is a big issue to me. Traffic of 500+ cars, 3-story buildings, etc.
This is what another city council member said to me: “The city will have little control over the shape, style, density, etc. of what goes in there and will also have little to say about traffic calming if it is rezoned DG.”
Matt Petty
July 12, 2009
Kathy – You’re right about the density, but wrong about the shape or style of the buildings. One of the features of Downtown General is the design standards. It’s true that some people like ‘em, and some hate ‘em, but there they are and they do keep the worst from happening.
As far as traffic calming goes, we rely on studies performed by our own engineers and we make those calculations when a development is in the design process, not the rezoning process. In other words, any traffic calming that we find necessary will have to be put in place before the development is approved.
In my opinion, the whole issue with density is how it’s applied in a community, and RMF-24 allows some pretty ticky-tacky, isolated development. Downtown General is supposed to ensure that an isolated, community-draining development isn’t possible.
I think what a lot of neighbors are fearing is that this will be a huge encroachment on their pleasant neighborhood, and I just don’t see that being the case. During construction, yes, but not as much as Aspen Ridge (which is closer to more homes than the sale barn) but after the fact, not so much.
I think we really need to pay attention to our long-term vision for Fayetteville. The single-family core of your neighborhood must be protected, but the edges have to become more dense as we plan for light rail, bike paths, and walkable streets. This property is on the very edge of your neighborhood.
When I think about this property, I think it’s right in the middle of the Mill District, a beautiful neighborhood with an iconic cemetery, and a sprawling five-lane street. This property is an important part of making that mish-mash area of town more usable and vibrant. It’s exactly the kind of area the 2025 plan says should be slightly more intense than single-family, but not as intense as the intersection MLK and School, or the businesses right along either street.
I’m sorry that we probably won’t come down on the same side of this, but I think we need to take an objective view about the location of the site and its proximity to other parts of our community. I think a Downtown General zone on the edge of your neighborhood will turn out to be an asset, promoting things like trail connections, a neighborhood park, and shops within walking distance.
You said yourself that a mixed-use development of businesses and residential would probably be ok, and that’s exactly what we’ve outlined in the 2025 plan. If you look at the area now, there’s a lot of commercial, and no residential. There aren’t any trails and it’s big and barren.
It needs to be changed. The whole border between the Mill district and your neighborhood needs to be changed, because it’s 100% heavy commercial now, and it needs to be lighter.
I think this zoning is a step in the right direction, and I don’t think a Neighborhood Conservation zoning will facilitate the changes the area surrounding that intersection needs to change. Neighborhood Conservation is for protecting the cores of our neighborhoods. Downtown General is for making sure they’re not isolated from everything else.
burgerboy
July 12, 2009
Matthew:
Thanks for the intelligent, well-thought out response to all these questions. I agree with your assessment of the parcel and how it can serve as a transition from the neighbhorhood into the Mill District. I just really hope that the council will bear in mind the importance of making this a quality development that will stand the test of time, and not allow it to become another future blighted apartment complex. I can’t imagine Campus Crest remaking their business model to suit Fayetteville, but stranger things have happened.
Matthew Petty
July 13, 2009
Jeremy Pate from the City wrote me to clarify my comments regarding design standards and Downtown General.
“If zoned Downtown General, the sale barn property developers (these or anyone else) would have to comply with the City’s access management regulations, urban residential design standards, and Downtown General zoning standards. While this is not an all-inclusive list of the code requirements to which the developers will be held, these are the ones that will inform the “form” of the development pattern the most.
The Downtown Design Overlay District standards will not apply to this project; those architectural standards were developed with a set boundary, determined to be architecturally appropriate for the downtown only. I just wanted to make sure everyone is clear on that point.”
West Ave-Kathy
July 13, 2009
The density is the main problem. It is too intense. Yes, right now it is a large empty space, so now we have to paint in the picture how we want it. We don’t have to jump in on the first offer. Its commercial status will not do us in either, someone who wants commercial property for industry is not going to pay such a high price for a piece of land with bad access for semi trucks when they can go just a mile away to industrial park and get a piece of land for way less (less than a million for many more acres)and good street access–and less problems satisfying the city on code.
How will a large apt complex promote things like trail connections, a neighborhood park, and shops within walking distance? Sure CC has promised a trail, but any developer would. It does not change status of our neighborhood park. We do not have even a pedestrian street crossing at 15th & S. School.
I agree it needs to be changed, but from light industrial to a apt complex IS a huge change where traffic will be increased 10-fold. The sale barn produced very little traffic. So yes, it does need to be lighter. And since DG comes in a package with Campus Crest–the city is stuck with them. Our situation is unique because of the size of property–it only attracts developers with a lot of $$$ in their eyes. I thought our city wants to promote local businesses.
And this is as close to homes as Aspen ridge is. I am less than 1 block from Sale Barn. It will be an encroachment. You are right is is not right next to a home, but not much farther, what a half of block. It is not a fear, it is a reality.
No matter what size developement goes in there, it will be good for light rail. There is still al lot of places to develop in S. Fayetteville that will insure it, like on 15th. Besides light rail is a long way off. There is no rush to fill in for that, it will happen.
I thought it is light commercial, not heavy.
David Franks
July 23, 2009
“And as Kit informed us, we can’t consider anything a developer says as being reliable unless it’s provided contractually in writing…” –Matthew Petty
And with Kit’s help, it might not be reliable even then.
interested party
July 24, 2009
I am pretty sure one of fayetteville’s oldest cemeteries is right behind the kappa sig house smack dab in student territory and to my knowledge the students are not running amuck in the cemetery. I don’t remember hearing any news stories about students causing any problems up there. So why would they start now?? The veterans are just trying to buy time to raise money that they will never raise. So they are grasping at straws and attacking kids who never did anything to them. The “actual” people in charge of purchasing land for the national cemetery say this particular piece of land is way too expensive to buy. The local veterens keep saying they won’t have anyplace to bury their fallen soldiers. For the past 20 years they have been buying houses one by one as people either die or move on. I know because they bought my grandmother’s house which is now gone and a part of the cemetery.
They should think twice before they say that students will desecrate the cemetery. That was low.
Trackbacks