Street View: Light rail in NWA in our lifetime?
A few months ago at the Fayetteville Forward Summit, one of the most talked about topics amonst the nearly 500 folks that gathered to discuss the future of our city was, “what are we going to do about public transit?”
Many felt that a light rail system running from Fayetteville all the way up to the NWA regional airport, supplemented by a regional bus system, is the best long-term solution to our transportation challenges as our area continues to grow.
Tonight, Steve Luoni, director of the University of Arkansas’s Community Design Center, will discuss that very subject at the Walker Community Room of the Fayetteville Public Library beginning at 6:30.
We were curious as to what some of you thought about the idea of a light rail system in Northwest Arkansas, so we ventured down to the Smoke and Barrel last night and asked the following question:
“Will we see light rail in Northwest Arkansas in our lifetime?”
(Asked at Smoke & Barrel Tavern on July 29, 2009)
“I doubt it. I mean, they would make various excuses, but no, I don’t see that happening.”
“I’m 25 right now, and I would say yes, because I plan on living at least another 50 years. It’s definitely going to happen in our lifetime.”
“Of course. It’s going to happen as soon as I move away.”
“I would like it to happen. If they can get it done, do it!”
“I honestly don’t know. I’ll know a lot more after the meeting Thursday night.”
Comments
The Fayetteville Flyer doesn't necessarily condone the comments here, nor does it review every post. Read our full policy.
By Clint McDonald on July 30th, 2009
Would it be feasible/ possible to use Interstate ride of ways for the rail system? The ride of ways are already in place and I think measures can be taken to protect vehicles from tracks etc. Maybe rails down the center of median with protective fencing/railing. Just a thought. I think if the Government could some how benefit from this through cost savings etc., it may be win win.
Clint McDonald
By Matthew Petty on July 30th, 2009
Yes, we will. We’ll see it before 2020.
By Me on July 30th, 2009
I think it sounds like a good idea, but will enough people really use it to justify the costs? How many people (other than students) are using the U of A busses or ORT? Wasn’t ORT dropping routes because they are losing money? I love the idea of public transportation, but most cities (including NWA) are too spread out to make good use of it. I for one would rather drive my car to the ample parking spaces than wait for public transportation… does that make me a jerk?
By Laurie Masterson on July 30th, 2009
Me, that makes you smart! not a jerk you are actually applying logic and asking questions, which is what we are suppose to do. The ORT did drop routes and the U of A buses are basically empty (at least the ones I see). Great question about the cost verses use… Please encourage your friends to come to the meeting tonight to leard about how your money will be spent on this. 6:30 the Fayetteville Public Library. BRING FOLKS with! We need to be informed and let them know what they need to do not the other way around.
By Me on July 30th, 2009
It also seems like we have a long way to go before this option is better for the environment than personal transporation. Unless the trains and busses are full of passengers, they are wasting a lot of fuel/CO2/$$$.
By Charmuh on July 30th, 2009
The point to remember is that this light rail system will not only be servicing Fayetteville, but the entire NWA community.
If you’re like the rest of us that commute north everyday, you’d love to see an efficient and safe way method of transportation that will save you gas money and create less emissions.
On another note, the area will EVENTUALLY need light rail so why not start early in an effort to grow infrastructure around the transportation solution instead of the other (and less logical) way around.
By Matthew Petty on July 30th, 2009
@Me – Laurie is right about one thing. It doesn’t mean you’re a jerk, it means you don’t have access to a quality public transportation system.
You can’t half-ass public transportation and expect people to use it. Don’t get me wrong, ORT does a great job with what they have, but as a region we are pretty lacking in convenient public transportation.
@Laurie – I’m glad you’re investigating this issue. I hope you’ll remember that any modalities available to use have their associated costs, and the differences between them will become more apparent as they are scaled. The costs associated with rail transportation are minimal when compared to our oil addiction.
By Michael on July 30th, 2009
I hope to have a long life, and not see light rail or other tax payer dependent public transport system in that time. If a public transit system comes about that is fully self sufficient, at that time it’ll get my support.
By jcentennial on July 30th, 2009
There’s no such thing as self sufficient light rail system. DC’s system is one of the best, but they only pull in 80% of operating costs through ticket sales.
The value in light rail is in the infrastructure, the cost to the environment, the appeal to bright, educated and young folks (and if you want to be “Green Valley” that is pretty important)….all of which affect the quality of life.
By Michael on July 30th, 2009
Ah yes, you can only be bright and young if you happily support a money sink. I keep forgetting that part of the indoctrination…
Here’s a crazy idea if you work in Bentonville and have a problem with driving from Fayetteville (or vice versa), MOVE CLOSER. It’s really not that complex a concept.
By David Franks on July 30th, 2009
Non-users also derive benefits from a well-used public transit system: less traffic and reduced travel time; reduced demand on parking; and reduced taxes for ongoing transportation infrastructure creation and maintenance.
The conditions for creating light-rail in NW Arkansas are probably as good as they’re likely to get: possible funding for large infrastructure projects, particularly those with “green” outcomes; interest in alternative energy sources and technologies that are applicable to mass transit; increased public awareness of the need for appropriate balance of local/regional/state/national fiscal resources and expenditures; and greater public awareness of the need to live a little differently than in the recent past.
A light-rail system and its local connections could be nicely integrated into the NW Arkansas transportation network. It could procure funding from, and serve the needs of people at, every governmental level. At the local level, it would still be possible for cities to individually determine to a large extent their level of participation.
Even a rather workaday light-rail system could serve as a valuable pilot project, as more and more parts of the country speed toward the development conditions in NW Arkansas. Further, simply serving the everyday needs of local populations would do much to serve tourists as well.
If you ended up paying more for incorporation of light-rail that you would pay for the increasingly bloated automobile infrastructure already projected (and you already pay a lot, whether you know it or not), your world would be a better place. That’s worth money, too.
By Michael on July 31st, 2009
Reduced demand on parking? Only if people walk to or live by the terminals. Otherwise they still have to drive in from home and park.
Roads will still have to be built and maintained even with light rail, so there’s really no tax reduction there. Passenger vehicles are not the primary contributors to wear and tear on roadways. It’s construction vehicles and semis which will still be driving up and down the roads even with light rail.
By David Franks on July 31st, 2009
There would be reduced demand on parking at the places non-users would park.
Light-rail in NW Arkansas would be part of a system. Buses and carpool vehicles would also be parts of the system. The extent and type of service is where each city determines its level of participation.
If more roads are built, people will use them and tear them up, and demand more. Better to not build them. Certainly large-truck traffic is a major problem in the region. Let the large trucks have, tear up, and pay for the highways.
By Me on July 31st, 2009
If light rail was implemented, the only time I could see it being over half full is for morning and evening commute to/from Bentonville… if those people don’t need their cars during the day and they all go to/from work at the same time everyday. It does amaze me that so many people are willing to make that commute… it makes no since to me since Bentonville isn’t a major city that pushes people to the suburbs because of crime or housing costs. They could completely live closer if they wanted to so I don’t think tax payers should cover their commuting costs. Also, I hear people speaking of this idea like it is a “green” decision that eases our addiction to oil… that is total BS! Any light rail project that doesn’t run full of people every trip is WORSE on the environment than personal transportation. Our area simply isn’t ready for it yet and even if we are in the future, this will be wasting resources for years and years until that happens. The U of A buses are a great system of public transporation but I haven’t used them since I was a student because I can just drive where I want to go! People will use whatever option is most convenient which is why large cities can make it work. We simply are too spread out and have too much parking to make it a more convenient option for most.
By Me on July 31st, 2009
I just read the article and I agree that by 2050 light rail could be feasible. I say go ahead with the study and if it shows that it will be feasible by year 20xx then we can plan for it and build it when it is needed. We need to plan for the future, but we don’t need to build it so early that it is underutilized and needs major repairs by the time it is truly needed.
By Misty on July 31st, 2009
I was at the meeting last night and heard a lot of viewpoints from both sides. I think it’s good to investigate the issues from all sides, even though I am personally for light rail. I have lived near Seattle and spent considerable time in Portland, where rail is a important factor of daily life. Those who want to drive on the congested highways where top speed is often 15 mph, well, they drive. And those who prefer to ride the train, they pay their toll and ride. Tax money goes from both groups to support both projects.But they have the choice. Opponents to the project say they don’t want to pay for an expensive rail system they won’t use. But there are many of us who are paying for a highway system right now that we either don’t use or prefer not to use. I, for one, would like the choice.
By jcentennial on July 31st, 2009
I think light rail probably won’t happen in NWA in my lifetime either. The conservative culture (overall), the sprawl/low population density, etc.
And I gotta admit, it’s hard to make the cultural mindset shift to ride light rail, especially in such a low density place like NWA. Does anyone really think those good ole’ boys will get out of their trucks so that they can wait for a train to go somewhere? Then again, it doesn’t happen in St. Louis.
That said, if enough people want it, it can happen. Portland did it through strong political and people will. They enforced tough urban development regulations around the stations. The difficulty here is that there is a large conservative segment of the population, while Portland was and still is a very progressive city. There will be people who claim it’s socialism, anti-American, anti-development, etc.
Light rail is bound to happen, the question is what benefits will we derive if we start early?
-building the infrastructure first allows us dictate the growth patterns in NWA away from sprawl
-attract and retain the type of young talent to build industries that are NOT related to the Big 3 (Wal-Mart/Tyson/JB)
-attract and retain the type of companies that need those young, bright talent
-ultimately, create an environmentally sustainable system in NWA
-create a forward thinking culture in NWA
There many intangible benefits.
Imagine a highly bikeable NWA w/ a light rail system. People biking to a station in Fayetteville, getting off in Rogers, biking to work.
P. S. Me, nearly all light rail systems are nearly empty when it’s not rush hour or evening. They’re never “full all the time.”
By jcentennial on July 31st, 2009
BTW, more discussion on NWA light rail here: http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/Light-Rail-NWA-t50281.html
By jcentennial on July 31st, 2009
Another thing, you can see how Portland has become a youth magnet from this Wall Street Journal article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124242099361525009.html
“Portland has attracted college-educated, single people between the ages of 25 and 39 at a higher rate than most other cities in the country. Between 1995 and 2000, the city added 268 people in that demographic group for every 1,000 of the same group living there in 1995, according to the Census Bureau. Only four other metropolitan areas had a higher ratio. The author of the Census report on these “youth magnet” cities, Rachel Franklin, now deputy director the Association of American Geographers, says the Portland area’s critical mass of young professionals means it has a “sustained attractiveness” for other young people looking for a place to settle down.”
By Michael on July 31st, 2009
There it is again, the implication that only those who support public transit are young and bright.
Spend the money on more bike trails; a much better investment imo.
By Me on July 31st, 2009
Guys, this is a $1 billion project that won’t be economically or environmentally feasible until 2050… but we are making it sound like people that are skeptical or it must be “conservative, good ol’ boys” whereas supporters are “young and educated.” That is ridiculous… just because something sounds progressive doesn’t make it right. jcentennial says “Does anyone really think those good ole’ boys will get out of their trucks so that they can wait for a train to go somewhere?” Are you serious? You can’t act like we’re a bunch of hicks that don’t understand trains. We’re smart people that realize it does not make sense to wait for public transporation when there isn’t bad traffic and ample parking everywhere. Public transporation comes about from necessity, not because it is the smart choice. Students use the busses because parking at the university is very limited or expensive. Most non-students that have vehicles don’t use them because it would be stupid to wait for a bus to take you to Harp’s, etc. Public transportation works great in places like Europe because they built cities before vehicles were invented and thus even smaller towns are densly populated where the whole city is accessible by short walks or bike rides from the station. That is simply not the case here.
By jcentennial on July 31st, 2009
Me, definitely not my intention. I was just making a little side comment. I should have left it out.
So, to clarify, I’m not calling you a good ole’ boy if you don’t think it’s feasible.
In fact, I pretty much agree with you. I think 10-20 years from now is a good time frame to aim for light rail in NWA in order to “start early.” From now until then, stricter development regulations around potential stations could enforced to lay the groundwork.
Do I think young and educated people are more likely to support light rail? The obvious answer is yes, as the Wall Street Journal states. Am I saying you’re not if you don’t? No.
By Me on July 31st, 2009
Sounds good to me; I do think it will be nice to have once NWA has tripled in size so we might as well run the study to find out when it will be feasible and make sure we plan accordingly.
By jcentennial on July 31st, 2009
WSJ doesn’t state it explicitly, but the “livable city” culture is obviously the major draw.*
By Matthew Petty on August 2nd, 2009
It’s sad this opportunity is so political.
It really shouldn’t be. It should be a cold, calculated decision.
Which is exactly why we need an alternatives analysis (aka feasibility study)…
By Michael on August 3rd, 2009
Cold and calculated. Funny I thought that’s what calling public transit a money sink was. No matter which party is in office, public transit systems are an ongoing tax burden.
By Matthew Petty on August 3rd, 2009
How can you say that when you don’t have the data yet? That’s what a study specific to the area provides.
And… we’ve been burdened with billions in loans to the auto industry, and we didn’t even get to vote on that. At least we will probably get to vote on raising our own taxes for public transit.
By Matthew Petty on August 3rd, 2009
Oh, and don’t forget the tax burden associated with building roadways. How many cents on each gallon of gas? And then in Arkansas there’s the severance tax on natural gas drilling, plus a number of other consumer taxes that go to road construction.
On the local level, several million in sales taxes is spent each year on road maintenance and improvements…
When it comes to being cold and calculated on this issue, the only appropriate position to take is that we don’t have all the data yet.
By Michael on August 3rd, 2009
If there was money to be made in providing public transit, a private entity would be doing so. As it is, ORT is eliminating routes just to stay afloat. Even in densely populated cities in Europe, public transit runs at a deficit; why would a logical individual expect different results in an area with considerably less population density and a more wide spread population?
The ‘bailout’ given to the financial and automotive industries was a mistake that was going to fail from the first time it was mentioned. Notice how of the Detroit 3, the only one not to accept bailout funds (Ford) actually turned a profit by producing vehicles people actually wanted (making improvements in product quality helped), shedding unprofitable ventures (their premium brands primarily) and in generally realizing status quo wasn’t going to work.
The tax on gas for road construction/maintenance is a usage tax, which I’m quite alright with. I buy the gas to drive on the road and don’t see a problem paying to offset the wear and tear my driving adds. IMO usage taxes are fine as they are paid by the people who use the service and not by those who do not.
By Me on August 3rd, 2009
I was ok with the feasibility study until I got a letter in the mail stating that despite home values dropping below assessed values, my property tax will be going up 10% because the city is invoking a clause that basically states that when the economy suffers, they can raise property taxes to help the shortfall. We also have a millage increase vote for the new high school (not getting my vote if my taxes are already going up 10%). Can our city really afford the 1-2 million for a feasibility study at this point?
By Matt Petty on August 3rd, 2009
I am so glad we are having this discussion, because there have been some misunderstandings.
The City has not voted to raise property taxes. We might consider it when we start discussing the budget in a few months, and it hasn’t even been a topic of discussion yet. Trust me – I would know because I’ll be casting a vote on the issue if a proposal to raise taxes is made.
Maybe your letter came from the County…
Second, the City won’t pay for the study, the Regional Mobility Authority will. Of course, we will contribute a portion, but almost every city in NWA is represented at the Authority, and we would bear the costs of the study together.
But it gets better, there is federal money to fund the study 100%. The NWA Regional Planning Commission has applied for the money to conduct the study a few times, but has been turned down due to lack of initiative on the part of City leaders throughout NWA. As of this year, that is no longer the case.
Also, you should consider all of the data that shows property values around rail stops increases dramatically. 20-40%!!!
By Matt Petty on August 3rd, 2009
@Michael – Ah, the old invisible hand argument…
I like the usage tax discussion. We both agree that those who derive benefit from a public service should pay the taxes to support it.
Let’s delve into this some more…
I just read this morning at the Bureau of Transportation Services website (can’t find the link now though, good luck) that the fuel tax contributes only 25% of our road infrastructure costs. It is a per gallon tax, and for this reason, many have called for a mileage tax to replace the fuel tax. It would be far more equitable. After all, those who use the service more should pay more taxes, right?
Now, let’s talk about traffic congestion. When the roads you use become congested, it is the governments’ responsibility to address the issue. Traditionally, this has been done by building more roads…
Which usually requires public financing, like a bond issue, new tax, or toll system. Building a new four-lane divided highway costs around $40 million per mile, and most the cost is associated with right-of-way acquisition.
On the other hand, building a rail line costs about $35 million per mile. But that’s not all… because a passenger rail system can handle so so many more passenger-miles than a four-lane interstate, it mitigates existing congestion much more cheaply than building a new interstate.
Let me put it this way (and now, I will pull numbers out of my bum):
You could pay 45 cents a day for the next 20 years for a new interstate that you will never use because it’s completely out of your way, just to reduce rush hour congestion
OR
You could pay 25 cents a day for the next 20 years for a light rail that you may or may not use because sometimes it’s convenient, and sometimes it isn’t.
And the kicker? The 25 cents a day for rail would make your interstate commute that much more pleasant, again because it can handle far more passenger miles than another interstate.
By Michael on August 3rd, 2009
You still have rush hour traffic, only difference is it would be to/from terminals rather than individual businesses. So there is still congestion.
A lot of the congestion issues would be resolved by more logical flow control by stop lights. And that would be a near cost free improvement as those making the changes are already on the city payroll and the lights are already in place. The poor way getting traffic off the interstate is handled is one of the biggest causes of congestion on the interstate.
By Me on August 3rd, 2009
Hey, I have an idea to alleviate traffic; why don’t we just put a bunch of speed tables on the interstate! Obviously it doesn’t matter what the speed limit on the road is when putting in 15 mph bumps, so there ya go! Problem solved! We could also do a cash for clunkers program but just pay people the money to destroy their cars without getting new ones so that there are less of those horrible things on the road! To pay for it all, we can just tax the heck out of cigarettes even more (since smokers hardly count as people anyways)! Gall dang, I need me to be a mayers.
By Matt Petty on August 3rd, 2009
You’re right about the interstate. I’ve sat in on enough Regional Planning Commission discussions to know our highest priorities for 540 are redrawing the interchanges.
But that is only a short-term solution, and doesn’t solve the problem ever-increasing automobile use. The only way to solve that is to add more capacity and/or reduce demand.
Also, rail congestion doesn’t slow things down like interstate congestion does. Sure, sometimes there are delays, but rush hour delays aren’t guaranteed on a rail system like they are with an interstate. The trains still run at the same speed between stops, and they still stay stopped for the same amount of time. You’re just a little more crammed on the cars.
By Michael on August 3rd, 2009
Putting aside the cost of construction/maintenance/operations for now; but I’m not seeing how commuter/light rail between Fayetteville and Bentonville is going to help parking and roadway congestion significantly if at all.
If I worked in Bentonville/Rogers (while living in Fayetteville/Springdale) and did not live within walking distance of a station, I still have to drive to the station and park there. Then hop on the train, ride to Bentonville/Rogers and somehow (walk, bike, hire a taxi, etc) get to wherever my office is. It doesn’t look like a relief of congestion to me, but a shifting of it.
By Matt Petty on August 3rd, 2009
I think you are assuming that rail would be developed in the absence of other modes of transportation.
Also, driving in town to a station is a lot less driving than driving through town to out of town to another town.
By Michael on August 4th, 2009
The only assumptions I’m making about its development are that it will be a waste of money and its path will follow more or less north/south along existing right of ways.
By Liz on August 4th, 2009
I am originally from Dallas, came to Fayetteville for school and never left. My parents are a big fan of the lightrail system in Dallas called DART. My mom will drive to the square of Irving (a suburb of dallas) and ride the train into Dallas (especially North Park Mall and downtown) just to avoid parking and traffic and because she can get several things done on her commute that she couldn’t do if she were driving. I know that Fayetteville isn’t Dallas and I hope it never is but this would be a great way to connect Fayetteville to Bentonville and make working in this area more appealing to the vendor community.
By Michael on August 4th, 2009
I personally prefer traffic in DFW to NWA. Yeah it’s heavier, but even during rush hour I spent less time stopped and idling.
Sympathy for people who CHOOSE to live a long drive from where they work… Nil. If you decide to live 15, 30, 45+ minutes from work, don’t whine about the drive.
By David Franks on August 4th, 2009
“Sympathy for people who CHOOSE to live a long drive from where they work… Nil. If you decide to live 15, 30, 45+ minutes from work, don’t whine about the drive.” –Michael
Or earn more money so you can afford to live near your job.
By Michael on August 4th, 2009
You don’t have to earn a lot to live near your place of work. You just have to make the choice for yourself what you value you more. A slightly larger home, with the trade off of a longer than desired drive or a slightly smaller home and a shorter drive.
No one is forced to drive to from Fayetteville to Bentonville (or vice versa) for work; it is a conscious decision made by the individual who has weighed the costs vs the benefits.
By Me on August 4th, 2009
Last I checked, living in Fayetteville wasn’t cheaper than Bentonville. I understand the necessity of a long commute in huge cities, but NWA doesn’t fall into that category.
By David Franks on August 4th, 2009
Traffic patterns indicate that as many people live in less expensive areas and work in Fayetteville as the other way around.
Trackbacks