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News & Views

Not so fast: Appeal filed over Shave the Planet decision

  • by Todd Gill, Flyer Staff
    on June 15, 2012 at 11:48 pm

Customers congregate outside the Shave the Planet shaved ice stand at 3078 N. College Ave. Tuesday in Fayetteville.

Staff photo

The argument over whether a popular shaved ice stand may continue operating on College Avenue this summer isn’t quite over.

Commission members voted 6-1 Monday to approve a measure that will allow Shave the Planet to continue doing business at 3078 N. College Ave. instead of moving to a new location when their standard, 90-day permit expires.

An appeal of that decision – filed at the request of the owner husband of the owner of Maggie Moo’s, a nearby ice cream shop – will send the issue to the City Council next month.

Here’s some background:

A new extension process

Shave the Planet owner Eric Siebert has been granted extended stays at the same location for the past three years by obtaining a conditional use permit, but was met with resistance this spring following a recent change which now requires mobile vendors to obtain a variance instead of a conditional use permit.

The change, according to a staff memo, was recommended by city attorney Kit Williams who believed the conditional use permit process was not appropriate for mobile vendors and that extensions to 90-day permits should be granted with a variance that contains more specific language.

When the proposal made it to the City Council level in early May, it was billed as a way to help mobile vendors more easily obtain an extension.

“We have seasonal vendors such as our snow cone vendors that are approaching the warm summer days and this will allow them to apply for a longer period of time and to not have to move their stands,” said Ward 2 Alderman Mark Kinion, who sponsored the amendment. “This will be easier for them to go to the Planning Commission for approval.”

The language in the new process requires planning commissioners to make a judgement call on whether a mobile vendor’s presence “for an extended period of time at one location” will create “an unfair advantage over similar and nearby permanent businesses,” which opens an opportunity for nearby brick-and-mortar owners to request a denial of the application based on those specific guidelines.

“I do understand that the people who have fixed commercial buildings might object to the competition, but I think it’s fine,” said Ward 1 Alderwoman Brenda Boudreaux.

The new process was unanimously approved.

Maggie Moo’s objects

Although it was apparently designed as a simple way to help smooth the path for mobile vendors who request extensions, the new approach seems to have inadvertently created a speed bump which could become a roadblock for Shave the Planet, whose owners say they employ 15 people at their College Avenue location.

Maggie Moo’s owner Celeste Hoskins, whose ice cream shop is about 400 feet north and across the street from Shave the Planet, spoke in opposition of the shaved ice stand’s extension during the most recent Planning Commission meeting on June 11.

Hoskins told planning commissioners she enjoyed Shave the Planet and said she eats there with her children. “It’s a good business and we support them,” she said.

Hoskins said her reasons weren’t so much based on the two businesses being in direct competition. “This isn’t about a customer base,” she said. “This is not about competition. I am asking for an ordinance of some sort be established so that we’re all playing on the same playing field. I would like to establish some game rules here.”

Interpreting the law

Commissioner William Chesser said the Planning Commission doesn’t have the authority to make changes to the rules. That, he said, is a City Council decision. “This body does not create ordinance,” he said. “This body interprets existing ordinance.”

Chesser said the decision for the commission is to determine whether Shave the Planet is similar enough to Maggie Moo’s to have an unfair advantage by operating in a temporary, low-cost setup across the street.

Eric Siebert said his products were not the same as Maggie Moo’s. “You can classify them as desserts,” he said, “but that’s as far as it goes.”

Several Shave the Planet customers and employees spoke in favor of the extended stay on College including Andrea Lister, a mother of three children, who said shaved ice was a completely different experience.

“There’s no place in town where I can get something for my kids for only two dollars,” said Lister. She said the only time she’s visited Maggie Moo’s was when she had a half-price voucher. “Otherwise, I can’t afford it,” she said.

With the exception of member Craig Honchell, all other voting commissioners sided with Siebert. “I’m torn,” said Honchell before casting the lone no vote. Commissioner Tracy Hoskins, who is married to Maggie Moo’s owner Celeste Hoskins, recused himself from both the discussion and the vote.

“There is a substantial enough difference between shaved ice and ice cream,” said commission chairman Porter Winston.

Commissioner Matthew Cabe agreed. “It’s a seasonal business model like pool cleaning or window washing,” he said.

Not so fast

With a 6-1 vote in their favor, Shave the Planet owners took to their Facebook page in celebration.

“Operation Save Shave the Planet was successful!!! We want to thank everybody for their support,” a status update read.

Within two days, an appeal was filed with the city clerk’s office by Ward 3 Alderman Bobby Ferrell on behalf of Hoskins. As typical for an appeal, no details were offered in the filing as it’s simply a formality required to send the issue to the City Council.

Before leaving the podium at Monday night’s Planning Commission meeting, Hoskins reminded the group that their decision could serve as a model for future, similar cases. She asked commissioners if granting the variance was something they wanted to set a precedent for.

“If that is, then that’s great,” she said.

Apparently not.

The council will hear Hoskins’ appeal on July 3.

 

110 Comments

Fayetteville Flyer doesn't necessarily condone the comments here, nor does it review every post. Read our full policy.

  1. mmueller says:
    Saturday, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Comment removed. See our policy.

  2. Curious says:
    Saturday, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:56 am

    Undo competition? That idea is ridiculous. I can get dessert anywhere. Gas stations, grocery stores, restaurants, the nasty ice cream “van” that perpetually loops around my neighborhood. I can order it off the magical internet and have it delivered to my door. I don’t understand the world these days. If you don’t want to compete for business, don’t open a business.

  3. Prudent Me says:
    Saturday, Jun 16, 2012 at 10:27 am

    I really enjoy the Shave Planet but they sure are
    getting stingy with their servings they cover the round part of the ice with the flavor syrup but the entire bottom ice part has no syrup what’s so ever.

  4. Chuck says:
    Saturday, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:03 am

    The first time around I was willing to believe that Maggie Moo’s Hoskins really just wanted some ground rules established. However after this appeal it appears to me that Hoskins is being disingenuous, and really is trying to get rid of Shave the Planet.

    • dpd says:
      Saturday, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:57 am

      Agreed

    • innarested Observer says:
      Saturday, Jun 16, 2012 at 3:47 pm

      Well, this has been a productive week. I’ve found conclusively that two overpriced Fayetteville stores are managed by people talking out of both sides of their mouths, and that I never need to give my money to either of them. Thanks Flyer!

  5. FREEDOM 4 FAYETTECHILL says:
    Saturday, Jun 16, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    Lets Picket Maggie Moos!

    Keep Fayetteville Funky! GET THAT BIG CHAIN OUT OF THIS TOWN ONLY SHAVE THE PLANET SHOULD EXIST!

  6. innarested Observer says:
    Saturday, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    Nah, ain’t gonna picket ‘em…. might give people the wrong impression that they have a crowd.

  7. Cody says:
    Saturday, Jun 16, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    It doesn’t help that the owner of Maggie Moo’s owner, Tracy Hoskins, is on the Planning Commission and was literally the only person who opposed their permit last year (why was he allowed to vote on the issue in the first place?). He left some pretty unprofessional comments on their Facebook wall before and after the Planning Commission meeting this week.

    This is really just a case of a planning commissioner usurping his seat in public service to benefit his own business and no one else’s. Absolutely intolerable. Let your city council and the planning commission know you don’t want people like this making decisions for your city.

    • blarrrgh says:
      Sunday, Jun 17, 2012 at 7:42 am

      That’s really disappointing to find out. I love the ice cream at Maggie Moo’s and they’re the only ice cream shop I go to. I hate seeing how rife with conflicts of interest city business has become in this town. I’m sorry Maggie Moo’s is seeing a decrease is business because of Shave the Planet, but Maggie Moo’s faces competition from everything from McDonald’s sundaes to Braums, Shake’s and the fact that few people can afford $3-4 a piece for family treats. Maybe Maggie Moo’s should get a sno-cone machine!

      • Cody says:
        Sunday, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:05 pm

        There was definitely a case for “competition” but Shave the Planet owners did their due diligence to show that, after Andy’s went out of business down the street, they didn’t see an increase in customers and are even down 12% in sales from last year despite more efforts in marketing.

        That being said, it’s ludicrous that Maggie Moo’s would try to give me one less reason to drive by their door. Shave the Planet is bringing their own clientele to what is now a depressed part of town and if Maggie Moo’s can’t capitalize on that, they need to hire someone to better market their product instead of some non-sensical low blow like this.

      • Michael says:
        Sunday, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:26 pm

        It’s not much of a conflict of interest when Tracy Hoskins excluded himself from the discussion on the issue and did not vote.

        • Concerned 4 Fayetteville says:
          Sunday, Jun 17, 2012 at 11:20 pm

          We know our Flipper, Flipper, knows every answer,
          no-one can be, much smarter than he,
          and we know Flipper, lives in a world full of wonder,
          flying there-under, under the sea!

        • Chuck says:
          Monday, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:09 am

          I believe the conflict was last year, when according to Cody, Tracy Hoskins did not recuse himself from voting with the commission. Currently, Hoskins is recused, which is appropriate.

      • Tracy Hoskins says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:40 pm

        You make very good points. However, the businesses you mentioned are all bricks and mortar and are subject to the same rules and regulations as MaggieMoos. We will never complain about bricks and mortar competition who endure the year expenses of a permanent business as MaggieMoos does.

  8. Vanilla Ice says:
    Monday, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:19 am

    Love shavin the planet, support your local mobile food vendor!

  9. Kevin says:
    Monday, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:36 am

    Shave the Planet brings business to the better priced ice creams stops in the area. I don’t care for syrupy ice so I drop my wife and kids at Shave the planet and then run off to Sonic or Braums and get my self a small treat and then drive back to Shave the planet to enjoy our treats together. Maggie Moos taste great but isn’t in my price range for treats except for special occasions.

  10. Cassy says:
    Monday, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:05 am

    I love the idea of more mobile food vendors and I think we should make permits accessible to them more easily. I have never eaten at Maggie Moo’s and this makes me less inclined to do so. I agree that there are many competing businesses just down the street. I’m a Shake’s girl, myself, but any of these places are too pricey for regular visits from me.

  11. Tracy Hoskins says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:21 am

    Well, i guess there are a few reasonable people on this blog, others… well… who knows where they get their ideas from.

    First, it wasn’t Celeste Hoskins who requested the appeal. It was I, Tracy Hoskins, who requested it. An alderman must petition for the appeal. A citizen cannot file an appeal of a variance without a city council member’s support. Obviously, there is a council member who thinks there’s more to the story – and he is correct.

    First, let’s rewind. STP would not have had to get a variance had they not asked for an additional 90 days. The process was intentionally set up so that concerned citizens (yes, I am a tax-paying citizen too) may exercise their first amendment rights and present their objections if they have them. that’s called DEMOCRACY. I, as a Commissioner, did not participate in discussions or vote on the issue. I wasn’t even in the room. My wife chose to exercise her first amendment rights and speak her concerns. So any of you who say I am throwing my weight around as a Commissioner are simply ignorant. Further, I know of no Commissioner who ever agreed to give up their fist amendment rights or their rights as a citizen when offering or being appointed to serve.

    Upon approval of the variance, I (not Celeste) requested an appeal, as after watching the video of the Commission meeting, I found statements made by many that we FACTUALLY untrue. Further, I feel there are issues Staff tried to inform the Commission about that were not vetted. As it is my lawful avenue, I requested an appeal where I CAN speak to the issue and discuss facts and previously offered misinformation I feel deserve consideration.

    For all the uneducated out there – this IS NOT about competition. It’s about a fair playing field. This is not JUST about MaggieMoos, though there are those who damned them and made them the poster child of big-business. This is about bricks and mortar seasonal businesses with ongoing annual expenses and community involvement who stick it out and struggle through the loser months so they can make to the time of year when they may make up losses and maybe post a profit. Of course, then the seasonal vendors who’ve been vacationing all winter with no overhead move in across the street to pull sales (on very similar products) from those who are there during the good times and the bad – kind of like a parasite. It’s easy to sell products cheap and undercut your competition when you have overhead equal to that of moving and taking care of a storage shed.

    Finally – for those of you who don’t know the difference – MaggieMoos is a locally owned business. It is NOT a chain. MaggieMoos has the same start up and operating costs of any mom and pop shop.The only difference is MaggieMoos has the additional expense of franchise fees and ongoing royalties and marketing costs paid the the Franchisor as payment for a proven business model.

    See you at City Hall!
    TKH

    • vandelay says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:41 am

      “like a parasite”??? Really? That is a very cheap shot.

      Also, in the paragraph where you attempt to enlighten all of the “uneducated” people out there, you begin by stating “this is NOT about competition”, and you conclude, after multiple insults and assumptions, by stating “it is easy to sell products cheap and undercut your competition…”. Disingenuous, to say the least.

      • Tracy Hoskins says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:53 pm

        par·a·site/?par??s?t/
        Noun:

        An organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host’s expense.
        derogatory. A person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return.

        Do you find this to be an accurate description or just a cheap shot?

        • vandelay says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:24 pm

          Cheap shot. I already said that.

    • Innarested Observer says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:21 pm

      You can always tell the bent of some people when they start moaning and whining about their “rights as a citizen.”

      No one’s saying you don’t have the right, dude. Of course you do. Your sanctimonious admonition “that’s called DEMOCRACY” is insulting and obnoxious. But thanks for the civics lesson. There used to be a character named after you on the Bullwinkle show, I think.

      Yeah, you’ve got the right to exercise your freedoms as a citizen. But here’s a bit of nuance that has clearly eluded you: because of your position coupled with your relationship to the complaining business, ANYTHING you do is going to smack of impropriety. It ain’t about your rights, it’s about appearances. Sorry, but that’s part of the problems someone in your position must grapple with. So here’s YOUR lesson for today: It’s called CONFLICT OF INTEREST. The fact that you personally requested the appeal is all anyone needs to know.

      Now, is this fair? Probably not. But you’re in a role that requires a bigger responsibility than just what’s in your own best interests. Clearly, this is a responsibility you are ill-equipped to handle.

      • Tracy Hoskins says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:56 pm

        First, i don’t take anything very serious from someone who hides behind a handle instead of posting their real name. apparently, you haven;t read the posts. There are those (you being one of them) who don’t understand how government works. So any of you who say I am throwing my weight around as a Commissioner are simply ignorant. I recused and left the chamber room. How much more “fair” could the situation be? Obviously, my being a Commissioner didn’t sway the majority of the rest of Commission either, now did it?

        • vandelay says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:32 pm

          In this country we have the privilege and right to express our opinions anonymously. It’s called DEMOCRACY.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:41 pm

          Yes, that is your privilege. Just as it is my privilege to not take you seriously.

    • Jack Pierce; DEA says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:40 pm

      I am sure we are all sorry about your aches and pains of being a brick and mortar business, but your attempts at cutting down businesses that have found creative ways to not sell icy desserts in the wintertime (mainly NOT staying open) just come off as ignorant and a little pathetic. It seems that all Hoskins is concerned about is leveling the effectiveness of these stands’ business models.

      See you in Snarkytown!
      JPDEA

    • David Franks says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:43 pm

      For years, Kmart and Walmart went to great lengths to build stores within sight of each other. O’Reilly Automotive and AutoZone did the same thing. This does not appear to be an untenable situation for business.

      RE “Further, I know of no Commissioner who ever agreed to give up their fist amendment rights or their rights as a citizen when offering or being appointed to serve.”
      Well, except in situations in which conflict-of-interest law applies to a public position.

      RE “This is about bricks and mortar seasonal businesses with ongoing annual expenses and community involvement…..”
      MaggieMoo’s has an advantage in widespread franchise-branded advertising, plus the other benefits of a franchise business. The owner of Shave the Planet isn’t complaining about that. If being a brick-and-mortar franchise business isn’t advantageous enough, perhaps Mrs. Hoskins should look into getting a building that incurs only seasonal expenses, and vacation during the cold months. Of course, the MaggieMoo’s people would probably rescind the franchise, and Mrs. Hoskins would have to strike out on her own– like the owner of Shave the Planet has. You win some; you lose some. No single business has all of the advantages. (Does MaggieMoo’s not sell hot beverages or warm food of some sort?)

      RE “Of course, then the seasonal vendors who’ve been vacationing all winter with no overhead move in across the street to pull sales (on very similar products) from those who are there during the good times and the bad – kind of like a parasite.”
      On one hand, you defend franchise businesses, which, having wide exposure through consistent image, multiple physical locations and broad advertising, are parasitic compared to stand-alone mom-and-pop businesses. Then you refer to a business model that has an elegant solution for its seasonal nature as a parasite. I’d say it’s more like another successful business model.

  12. Curious says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    I am so glad I live in Bentonville. BTW, the Pedal Pops dude has expanded onto Dickson. He makes delicious, healthy treats and sells them from his bike. I realize that his extremely mobile nature and low overhead classify him as a parasite. At this point, I would walk from Maggie Moos to Dickson barefoot to patronize his “establishment”. Mr. Hoskins, I believe your problem is no longer your proximity to the COMPETITION but your glaring inadequacies in conducting public relations.

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:59 pm

      You have a problem with fact-based posts? I don’t try to be politically correct. Enjoy your walk to Dickson. My guess is you use the drive-up everywhere you go…

      • vandelay says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:40 pm

        Fact-based? Bullish!t.

        “seasonal vendors who have been vacationing all winter”? – really? How insulting. Do you know what they do the rest of the year?

        “overhead equal to that of moving and maintaing a storage shed”. – really? Be honest.

        You sound very bitter.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:54 pm

          Nope, not bitter at all. Just stating the facts. If I take the opportunity to make a jab at someone who jabbed at me first, then that’s fair play, not bitterness.

      • Curious says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 4:12 pm

        I don’t have a problem with anyone posting anything whether it be factual or delusional. I simply pointed out that you have bigger problems in store for your business if you believe that defending your position requires you to denegrate your customer base. Generally, when a business owner calls me names on a blog just because I believe differently than them it is a sign of insufficient customer service skills. I was merely trying to point out that if yours don’t improve your business will fail even if you get rid of your evil, lazy and parasitic competition. Thanks impIying I am obese and lazy. It lends more creedence to my assumption that you assume and post total crap about strangers just to make yourself feel more shiny and perfect. Pedal Pops, by the way, makes everything from scratch with minimal sugar. I walk there daily from my home with my sons and then steal a car and go through his drive up. Do you mean drive through?? You are mean spirited and I find it asinine that you would alienate potential customers in such a public forum.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:51 pm

          You should reread your post and see who drew first blood. If your idea of a debate is me rolling over and playing dead when folks take a jab at me, you have the wrong guy. I am not, nor will I ever be hung up on being politically correct. I state things as i see them, though I agree, as a local businessman and being in the public eye as I often am, I could be better about not lowering myself to the level of others.
          Further, I want to clear something up. My using the term parasite was probably a bit unfair. I was trying to paint a picture and did a poor job. What I meant by using the term was this… I intended to describe a seasonal business that comes in and opens up only when it benefits them the most and feeds off another businesses customer base; a business that spends the entire year – good times and bad – cultivating those customers. Parasite seemed to be an appropriate word at the time, though I concede could be offensive. For that, I apologize.

        • vandelay says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:59 pm

          I appreciate the toning down, but I disagree with your argument. If someone rents a kiosk at the mall in December and sells scarves and gloves all winter long, that seems like great business timing, not parasitic activity.

        • Curious says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:04 pm

          I read my posts again. I never insulted you. I stated that if you don’t want competition you shouldn’t open a business. I mentioned “competition” by name, perhaps providing positive marketing for them instead of you. I said I would walk from your business to Dickson to get a healthy treat provided by a person who values his customer base and does not insult them repeatedly in a public forum. I stated my objection to being called: uneducated, ignorant, fat and lazy. I don’t need you to eat my ice cream. You desperately need people to continue or commence eating yours or your panties wouldn’t be in such a gigantic wad about Shave the Planet in the first place. You read your posts. Do you see how you appear juvenile, angry, arrogant, petty and full of it? No? Don’t care? Maybe you will care when your business that is suffering from “undo competition” goes under because people don’t want to patronize a condescending, insult throwing crybaby?

  13. glutenfree says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    I am glad Mr. Hoskins posted his thoughts. Thanks Tracy.

    I can see his point a little more, especially with a seasonal business that does more or most of its business in the summertime, versus the rest of the year.

    It would almost be like allowing mobile purse-shops, dress boutiques, pottery stores, etc to set up shop next to the square during the Christmas season, and undercut some of the sales that those brick and mortar businesses have waited patiently for all year.

    Its nice to hear directly from the other side on this one.

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:00 pm

      FINALLY!!! A voice of reason – rational and not emotional! Thanks!

      • Shoryuken says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:14 pm

        You sound like blockbuster whining about netflix and redbox.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:18 pm

          Only if Redbox or NetFlix tried to get a variance to set up outside my parking lot for an extended period masquerading as a “Mobile Vendor”. Ok, one is walk-in rent a movie bricks and mortar business. The other two are online services. Hmmmm How is this similar…? Blockbuster failed due to technology passing them by. Duh…

        • vandelay says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:51 pm

          Red box is a vending machine. Which reminds me… My roomie owns two very profitable ice cream vending machines. Those were purchased for $1000 each, shipped. Shop owners up and down college are happy to lease space for those machines. It’s a great business!

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:56 pm

          Ha! You got me there. I knew RedBox was a vending machine. My mistake on my post. In any case, my point was technology passed Blockbuster by. Thanks for factually correcting me.

        • vandelay says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 4:34 pm

          Yes, Blockbuster failed to adapt when a competitor figured out how to deliver a similar product with far less overhead.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:57 pm

          AH HA! Good one! I agree with you. Blockbuster DID fail to revamp their model in time. However, they were already so established in their old model, there was little they could do. What do you do with thousands of huge store fronts? MaggieMoos has somewhat of the same issue. The Franchisor makes the Franchisee follow a particular business model which we can do nothing about. I think there are many Franchises out there which need to take a close look at their business model, especially as food trucks continue to grow in popularity. Nice comment, thanks!

        • vandelay says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:07 pm

          Sheesh, you are exhausting! Overall I am hearing a very strong victim mentality from the owners of Maggie Moos. If it’s not the city allowing an unlevel playing field, then it is a competitor stealing customers, or a corporate office which won’t allow you to change the way you run your franchise. I’m sorry you feel so hamstrung at the business you choose to own.

      • Innarested Observer says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:47 pm

        Practice what you preach.

      • Innarested Observer says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:50 pm

        “Lead by example” is a good rule of thumb.

    • C.D says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:45 pm

      …or allowing farmers to sell produce out of the back of a van for 1/2 the year, 3 days a week and take business away from brick-and-mortar grocery stores. Now THAT would be unfair.

      • Tracy Hoskins says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:59 pm

        A wee bit different situation, but a good example. I’d say the difference is the products offered by the farmer must be locally grown and organic. They are also concentrated into particular locations and not near grocery outlets. If they set up across from Harps three times a week for half a year, I’d bet Harps wouldn’t care for that.

  14. Jack Pierce; DEA says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    gluten- isn’t that precisely what competition in business is all about? short of those creating knock-off/exact replicas of what are in the stores’ original collections, more vendors create better ideas and a better market for the consumer. Dontyathink?

    • glutenfree says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:54 pm

      Business is about competition. I have favored the mobile vendors, but I am open-minded, and I think Hoskins made some good valid points.

      Fayetteville is not nor has it ever been all about what is the most efficient, quickest way to make a buck. That is why we have higher building standards than any city in NWA.

      I don’t personally know Tracy Hoskins, but I can see from his actions that he is a good business-man and actually cares about Fayetteville. He took a decrepit old Gold’s Gym building and overhauled it into a much better space, attracted businesses, houses Haas Hall Academy, and went above and beyond in his landscaping and tree planting. His property has the best greenery in that part of Fayetteville because he deliberately went that route.

      He even opted for a ground-mounted sign. He gets what Fayetteville is generally trying to do with its landscape requirements to beautify the city. Its apparent that he wants to make Fayetteville a better place.

      I get the mobile vendor club want a “more interesting” city and that mobile vendors are percieved as a part of that. But I also see the other side, and Tracy helped me see it more clearly.

      I am glad he has a brick and mortar business and doesn’t close down shop for 8 months a year, or operate out of a trailer on his property. I think having actual businesses in place is far better than having transient businesses popping in and out.

      I don’t know if its an overstep to assume that Shave is directly competing with his business and that he has any say about what happens on someone else’s property across the street from his, but I think he made some good points.

      • Tracy Hoskins says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:14 pm

        Obviously, you think about things much more in depth than many others. Thanks for your awareness and your comments. TKH

        • Jack Pierce; DEA says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:07 pm

          What is really being said here: anyone who disagrees with me CLEARLY hasn’t thought this through “in depth”.
          Pathetic.

        • Innarested Observer says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:41 pm

          Amen Jack. Our fair commissioner has a balanced view: his side is right, that side is wrong.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:03 pm

          So, it’s okay for me to post, but God forbid I defend my argument and disagree with you. Sounds like sour grapes with you two guys. How about putting up a decent argument, though I know it’s far more easy for you to call into question my character and my position as a Commissioner – kind of like the nannie-nannie-boo-boo of a little kid.

        • Jack Pierce; DEA says:
          Thursday, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:48 pm

          Jeez… it’s like talking to my bong. It’s not your arguments that we have objection with; it is your snarky, pontificating tone.
          Does anyone ever notice, in general, that it’s usually the loudest/most boisterous mouth in the debate that would rather draw attention to the noise than to what is actually being said?
          Read my comments, Tracy. Where did I ever mention anything about your role on the commission?
          Your opinions favor imposing regulation of small businesses. Take a look at the condition of, say, utility companies and tell me whether or not you think that over-regulation of businesses is hurting or helping commerce/business competition. Remember Ma Bell? You are creating entry barriers for the industry, which in turn gives consumers one dimensional product choice and higher prices of goods. THIS is the issue, not your position.
          Is that “in depth” enough?

          -JPDEA

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:25 pm

          Well, I swore I was going to quit posting on these blogs. However…
          Jack, I said “you two guys…”. I was referring to the other guy who called into question my position as a Commissioner, not you. I agree with you, when i get wound up, I could definitely do a better job on how I put things. My apologies to all for that. I will try to do a better job in the future.
          You make some very good points. And, I generally oppose too much government interference in the private sector. My point would be, regardless of whether we like regulations or not, they are always going to be present. If any business has to follow particular regulations, then all should have to follow the same. To give any business a free pass from any regulation, be that business small or large, permanent or semi-permanent is acceptable – in my opinion. I agree, a temporary mobile business should not bear the burdens as a permanent business and be cut some slack on certain regulations. But when that temporary business becomes a semi-permanent business, then the same regs should apply.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:27 pm

          OOPs, I meant NOT acceptable…

  15. Tracy Hoskins says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Let’s get something straight…
    As a commissioner, I have made my position very clear EVERY TIME a mobile vendor comes through with an application for an extended stay. STP is NOT the only mobile vendor in this town. There have been several come through for extended stay variances. Ask the city attorney, the Chair of the Commission or city Staff. I have always been opposed to ANY mobile vendor setting up a similar business in very close proximity to bricks and mortar businesses for an extended period. I was one who SUPPORTED mobile vendors in general. I have no problem with ANY mobile vendor setting up for 90 days as they may do by right per the UDC. I think Mobile vendors add to the streetscape in most cases. However, I do not agree they should stay in any one place longer than 90 days. by definition, they are “MOBILE” vendors. that mean they actually move from time to time. I do not think the ordinance was designed to be a “semi-permanent business model”. It was designed to let people give their concept a try and if it’s a good one, set up a permanent business.

    • David Franks says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:48 pm

      RE “However, I do not agree they should stay in any one place longer than 90 days. by definition, they are “MOBILE” vendors. that mean they actually move from time to time.”
      Then shouldn’t brick-and-mortar businesses actually be built with bricks and mortar?

      A mobile home, by definition, is designed to be moved intact (or largely so) from from the factory to a site. The definition does not require that it be periodically thereafter.

      • Are we still talking about this? says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 3:57 pm

        Your logic is not appreciated in this conversation, sir.

        • Curious says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 4:16 pm

          Actually, it is appreciated. Although, haven’t you switched sides this time, Mr. Franks?

        • David Franks says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 4:46 pm

          How so?

        • Curious says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 4:48 pm

          I thought you favored protecting the interests of brick and mortar businesses. I may have misunderstood.

        • David Franks says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:10 pm

          Ah. I attempted to explain that there is a historical and practical basis for that stance on the part of a city government, and that this preference does not constitute a conspiracy to prohibit food trucks. I also wanted to properly place food trucks in the consideration of food service technology, which also arose in the threads.

          According to Edmund Bacon, two essential elements of a successful urban space are pedestrian traffic and the availability of food. That sounds a lot like food trucks. As I said at least twice in the food truck threads, I like food trucks, and I hope that the ordinances can be further tweaked so as to streamline the process for operating one.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:10 pm

          Mr Franks – glad to hear from you again.
          When i refer to “Mobile Vendor”, I am referring to it in the context of the UDC. I also support mobile vendors. Many add to the streetscape and offer something different – not available anywhere else. Mobile vendors can be anywhere they want in the city for 90 days and I have no issue with that.

          Food trucks are GREAT! I love the idea. But to your argument, you don’t get anything more “mobile” than a food truck. I have NEVER seen a food truck squat in one place for even 90 days, much less 180 days.

          Once again, this argument is relative to Mobile Vendors and how the ordinance is being contorted into being a semi-permanent business model. If this city wants to allow Mobile Vendors to be able to be semi-permanent, then they need to change the code accordingly.

        • Curious says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:19 pm

          Well, of course you haven’t seen a food truck squat in one place for more than 90 days in Fayetteville. They can’t. We all know that. There are several in Rogers, Bentonville and Lowell that do, however. I’ve seen them stay for YEARS in one location in Jacksonville, Florida. I hear tell they have several in Miami and Austin that remain stationary. I guess there are some cities where restaurants and silly little ice cream shop men aren’t worried about competition. Maybe because THEY can handle it?

        • David Franks says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:32 pm

          Mr Hoskins– The UDC does not define “mobile vendor” as you indicate. The ordinance has, by way of definition:
          “178.04 Outdoor Mobile Vendors Located
          On Private Property
          “(A) Purpose. To permit outdoor mobile vendors, also known as transient merchants, to operate on private property while preserving and protecting the health, safety and welfare of citizens.”….

          “178.05 Transient Merchants
          “All transient merchants are subject to regulations and registration under Arkansas state statutes. Any criteria established herein shall not relieve the applicant from meeting applicable criteria relative to transient merchants. ‘Transient merchant’ means any person, firm, corporation, partnership, or other entity that engages in, does, or transacts any temporary or transient business in the state, either in one (1) locality or in traveling from place to place in the state, offering for sale or selling goods, wares, merchandise, or services”

          The definition of mobile vendor (or transient merchant) does not include a time limit for operation in one location; in fact, it includes a business that stays in one location. The 90-day time limit set forth in 178.04(B)(7) is a regulation of a type of business defined separately in 178.05, and that time limit can be varied under other procedures set forth by law.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:51 pm

          RE: The 90-day time limit set forth in 178.04(B)(7) is a regulation of a type of business defined separately in 178.05, and that time limit can be varied under other procedures set forth by law.

          That procedure is a “variance” per 178.04(c). When one asks for a variance, there is other criteria to meet. Those who may feel affected by the granting of the variance have the right to speak and object at a public hearing. As a Commissioner, I was unable to exercise this right at the Commission level. I am able to exercise this right at Council level.

        • David Franks says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 7:26 pm

          I understand that, and you certainly have the right to appeal, though I wonder why you did so instead of the Mrs. My point is, the time limitation is not a defining characteristic of a mobile vendor. As long as you appear to argue, incorrectly, that mobile vendors must by definition move, your contention lacks legal and practical merit. That, along with your tendency to intemperate rhetoric, weakens your argument.

          A well-thought-out discussion can be just as interesting as a flame war, and it is infinitely more productive.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:34 pm

          Mr Franks – There’s is part of the code that you have failed to include. If you went online to get your info, the part you are missing is not online yet. 178.04(c) states a variance may be granted from the 90 day requirement to operate for an extended period of time if certain criteria is met. 178.04(c)(3)(b) “That the outdoor mobile vendors’ presence for an extended period of time at one location will not create an unfair advantage over similar and nearby permanent businesses”. Note the code says “similar”, not “identical”.

  16. Hannah says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    I think this is a fascinating conversation. When we met months ago, to discuss ordinances for mobile vendors in Fayetteville, we talked to the spearhead of the food cart culture in Portland Oregon on speaker phone. The Brick and Mortar vs. mobile restaurant is a discussion had by many. I was particularly interested because we own a brick and mortar restaurant, too. But I think the general response that he had was that food carts don’t compete with the restaurants. They bring more foot traffic to the neighborhood, they bring more people in general, and they bring attention to that area. I think a little friendly competition might bring up the quality level of the restaurants that are here. Who’s to say that STP doesn’t bring in people who sit on their benches and look around, and say “hey! I didn’t know there was a Maggie Moo’s over here?”. Your products are pretty different, and hit different price points. I don’t think they really affect eachother at all. Of course, I have nothing to back that up with. That’s just my “vibe” on it, being a business owner in a saturated district of eateries.

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:20 pm

      Great comment, Hannah.
      I tend to agree with you on most of your point. However, there IS a difference in food carts and a mobile vendor coming in only in the high season. As to you comment of whether the two businesses are totally different, I disagree. They advertise Ice Cream, Sherbet, Milk Shakes, etc. These are on their menu. One of those speaking on their behalf at the Planning Commission meeting when referring to STP said (about their location), “…it’s been an ice cream place…” for several years. I think that person was one of their own employees. An STP employee, at the Commission meeting, whispered to my wife, “we sell ice cream too”. MaggieMoos sells smoothies, sorbet and sherbet – both ice-based and similar products. MaggieMoos sells ice cream and shakes which they also advertise. So how different are they?

      • Curious says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:29 pm

        Wait, Mr. Hoskins. I thought I was an imbecile for thinking this was about competition. Didn’t you say that? Do the thoughts just run too fast in your brain and you can’t remember what point you meant to make? Or is contradicting one’s self the new sign of a sophisticated, untouchable business man that is above the rest of us? I’m feeling a little frisky at this point. I can’t wait to see how you will “sink to my level” next….I know you are so far above me it must be excruciating each time you fall down and have to claw your way back up.

        • Tracy Hoskins says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:44 pm

          My thoughts do run faster than I can type sometimes… I’ll give you that one…

  17. Innarested Observer says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    But, someone who has a conflict of interest AND a position to take advantage of it can unfortunately do so, because in some ways we are still a very small town and some people have very small minds. I’ve got no problem with anyone trying to start and run a business, as long as the playing field is level. When someone starts bullying someone else and trying to game the system, it just makes me wonder what happened to the America I grew up admiring.

    I think ultimately the frauds will get theirs, so I still have hope.

    And in the meantime, I can run rings around flimsy arguments and remain amused by those who are all sound and fury. Similarly, I vote with my pocketbook, and that will mean I’ll continue to enjoy STP’s products and value, and continue to avoid overpriced, HFCS-laden crap and the proprietors of same.

    Write yourself out of that one, Joan Wilder.

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:31 pm

      RE: And in the meantime, I can run rings around flimsy arguments and remain amused by those who are all sound and fury.
      Then why don’t you?

  18. vandelay says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    I don’t subscribe to the “level playing field” argument. If a business finds a way to drastically reduce overhead, that shouldn’t be held against them, as long as it meets all legal requirements. What if a new ice cream shop opens up and installs some crazy ultra efficient freezers and lightbulbs and toilets and dishwashers, thus drastically reducing overhead? Is that fair? What if they find a landlord who will barter rent for ice cream? Or take out a reverse mortgage? Is that a level playing field? It seems like this type of “fairness” is elusive, if not impossible to achieve.

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:29 pm

      Your comments are well put and some have merit. Any good business owner should find any way they can to reduce operating costs and leave wages alone if possible. The idea of a level playing field really has nothing to do with that concept in this case. When I mention level playing field, what i am referring to is everyone playing by the same rules and regulations set forth by the governing bodies. Bricks and mortar businesses must comply with many costs just because they are bricks and mortar – Landscape regs and maintenance, water, sewer, sanitation, building insurance, restrooms for customers and associated upkeep, ADA regs, property taxes, liability insurance, the list goes on and on – many of which a mobile vendor is not subject to. Again, if STP has such a great concept and following, then they should rent the a permanent spot in the building which they occupy the lot year after year. Once they do that, then you’ll never hear another peep out of me on the issue. They aren’t going to do that because then they’ll have to follow the same expensive rules as the rest of us do.

      • vandelay says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:51 pm

        So you will be silent as soon as Shave the Planet runs their business the way you want them to, including renting a building year round in order to house their seasonal business. Cool offer! I’m getting the feeling that your objection isn’t to the extension, but rather to the mere existence of Shave the Planet because they are somehow gaming the system. By selling ice cream. In a truck. In the summer.

  19. blarrrgh says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    As a social media professional, I am fascinated by Tracy Hoskins’ approach here. Picking public fights with citizens and customers in a public forum, even under the guise of “clearing the air”, is just ill-advised. Just like the ONF’s marketing director, Hoskins has done infinite more damage to his family’s business than he’s done good. Mr. Hoskins, please take heed of some free advice: this is not the forum nor the format to express your opinion. You are not only doing it poorly, you are doing it by hijacking this public forum to defend your business.

    Next, on a personal note, I love Maggie Moo’s. I love the ice cream, especially the cotton candy and red velvet flavors. And, I hate sno-cones. I think they’re gross. My husband loves sno-cones, especially Shave the Planet sno-cones. We go to Maggie Moo’s first where I get a delicious ice cream cone then go across the street to STP and get him a gross sno-cone. Thanks to your enlightening commentary and fabulous lesson on civics, I’m going to be getting my ice cream, and civics lessons, elsewhere. Citizenship begins by respecting each other as citizens, not by implying that anyone who disagrees with you is lacking in facts. I eat out more than most anyone I know. When I’m in the mood for a sit-down restaurant experience, I visit one. When I need something quick, I hit a drive through. I certainly would be sad if Maggie Moo’s went out of business because its business model isn’t working, but this is the reality of our changing business environment. Currently, Best Buy is losing its pants because of online merchants such as Amazon and NewEgg. Best Buy’s business model is outdated and has been replaced by new habits for our new world.

    You have done yourself, your credibility and your family business a great disservice by your commentary here. I am appalled that you would comment publicly, as a man in your position, about your wife’s business. If you don’t understand why that’s grossly inappropriate, I can’t help you. I can further guarantee that Maggie Moo’s hasn’t gained a single customer from your diatribes, but it has certainly lost at least one. Do yourself a favor and don’t double down.

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:41 pm

      You know what, I appreciate the comments and you are 100% accurate. I have not done MaggieMoos any good by arguing here. I agree. And, my intent has never been to dishonor or disgrace STP. We like the Sieberts and we get our kids sno-cones there. But honestly, my argument is not just for MaggieMoos, which has become the poster child for this debate. I have spoken with several business owners and they agree with me on the mobile vendor issue, and not just restaurant owners. The problem is, unless it affects one’s business directly, then no one ever speaks out or gets involved. Anyone who knows me knows I’m not afraid to be a lightning rod, sometimes to my own detriment.

      As a franchisee, we have little to say about our business model. There are changes we would make if we were allowed to. However, MaggieMoos will either survive or not on it’s own merits. I have very little to do with the business and my wife supports my efforts on this issue 100%. This is not about competition. This is about everyone playing by the same rules and regulations. Your comments are well-founded and appreciated.

      • blarrrgh says:
        Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 7:09 pm

        You know, I’m sure you’re a nice man, and I’m sure it’s hard to see your sales dwindle and your business at risk. However, please realize that your premium product no longer fits the budget of most Fayetteville residents. That’s not your fault, and it’s not our fault. Your competition isn’t STP, whose financials are also down YoY. Your competition is the fact that your ice cream costs $4 a scoop. I can buy a pint of Ben & Jerry’s at Walmart for less. A family of four can go to STP and get a treat for $8. At Moo’s, it would be twice that or more. It stinks that you have chosen to invest in a premium retail outlet and the economy went south, but don’t use your position in the planning commission to try and sway the argument. You applied to the planning commission several times and were denied an appointment because of the conflicts of interest inherent in your position as developer. It seems, now, that it should have remained this way.

        I sincerely wish you and your family business tons of success, but your commentary is a perfect example of the incestuous (no, not like that) nature of Fayetteville city business. Your appointment is up next Spring and I hope that’s all she wrote.

        • glutenfree says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 10:44 pm

          Yes, because its better that all of the planning commission decisions in Fayetteville be made exclusively by people with zero experience in the business community.

          Your apparent insider knowledge of STP’s financials betrays your connection to that business or its owners and undermines any attempt you have made thus far at appearing objective.

        • Innarested Observer says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:36 pm

          Or, gluteus, it could just be this thing called Google that allows people to find a wealth of information. STP disclosed that information. Think more, post less.

        • blarrrgh says:
          Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:58 pm

          @glutenfree Your accusation is completely baseless. In the information STP provided in support of its position, it pointed that its financials are down compared to last year. This was presented to counteract Maggie Moo’s contention that their business is only down because of STP. I can promise you on my word of honor that I don’t know the owners of STP from Adam, and my business isn’t even remotely food related. I have no financial interest in their sno-cone stands and as I’ve stated before, I think sno-cones are nasty. I like Maggie Moo’s ice cream very much.

          Further, it was the city council itself that expressed reservations about Hoskins’ appointment, with Kyle Cook, Council member at the time, saying that they’d denied Hoskins’ appointment several times and that he would be serving, initially, a probationary term. Experience in the business community is highly desirable, but I pity you for not understanding why you don’t put someone whose business is building things on the planning commission. Umm, duh. I am using publicly available information to posit an informed opinion that I can back up with, you know, actual facts and stuff. Paradigm Companies owns the building Maggie Moo’s is in, and Celeste Hoskins is Vice President of the company from whom she leases the Maggie Moo’s space. So, if we’re talking about an “equal playing field”, is Maggie Moo’s paying the normal going rate for that space, or is that not a concern since the Hoskins own the building? So, gluten, spend some time on Google, do your due diligence, then come at me.

        • Innarested Observer says:
          Thursday, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:12 am

          I’m amused by gluteus using the word “insider” because I very much doubt it applies.

  20. Innarested Observer says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Amusing to me that tracy says he can’t take someone seriously because they post anonymously, but then cites the “many business owners” he has spoken to who side with him… anonymously. If the standard is the same, then they should be in here posting under their own names. If they don’t, then using his own proclaimed standard, his statement can’t be taken seriously.

    Time to go get a shaved ice.

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:45 pm

      Me posting my actual name and others doing the same is far different than me posting other’s names without first asking for their permission. Just because I didn’t tell anyone their names doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

      • Innarested Observer says:
        Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:31 pm

        But we have to take your word that they do, and since you’ve got an ax to grind, I think your objectivity is in doubt. Which is the original problem anyway and why there was concern, to me being vindicated, about your position on this commission to begin with. Your continued nose in this affair that has a direct bearing on your business is a clear conflict of interest, period.

  21. Beck says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 9:01 pm

    “Food trucks are GREAT! I love the idea. But to your argument, you don’t get anything more “mobile” than a food truck. I have NEVER seen a food truck squat in one place for even 90 days, much less 180 days.”

    As someone else said, of course you don’t see that in Fayetteville. And it’s a shame. I am terribly saddened by this thread as well as the resistance from several higher-ups towards mobile vendors. Mobile vending, whether it’s a clothing shop or a food truck, is an excellent way to bring business, excitement, and variety to a town. Why are we so hell bent on not letting Fayetteville mix it up and thrive? The fact that Mr. Hoskins has his panties in a bunch over a small shaved ice vendor is baffling. They couldn’t possibly bring it as much money as Maggie Moo’s nor really hurt their business considering they charge more, and also do events, customized cakes, etc. And while it’s been argued that they have ice cream at STP as well, most people are only going to seek it out for shaved ice and shaved ice alone. I didn’t even know they had ice cream, so I would choose to go to a business that predominately served ice cream if that was what I was craving.

    I lived in Fayetteville for several years and now reside in Austin. The mobile vendor is alive and well here, and most are permanent in their locations. Some choose to go the brick and mortar route, others don’t. Some move based on other factors, but almost all are near brick and mortar establishments. Hell, quite a few of them are surrounded by other restaurants, shops and bars. They all bring something different to the table and depending on my taste, I’ll go where I enjoy the food the most. So if Maggie Moo’s, or any other brick and mortar establishment, is putting out quality food and quality customer service, I’ll return again and again.

    The government is indeed incestuous in Fayetteville and it’s a huge bummer. I’m sad to see the town I grew up in and love run by such petty individuals.

    • Michael says:
      Thursday, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:57 am

      “The mobile vendor is alive and well here, and most are permanent in their locations.”

      If they are permanent in their location, they are by definition not mobile as mobile implies movement…

      Perhaps it would help to clear things up to separate the regulations for those businesses that are truly mobile and relocate on a (semi) regular basis and those that are seasonal in nature but stationary in locale.

  22. blarrrgh says:
    Wednesday, Jun 20, 2012 at 10:29 pm

    Just to clarify, Shave the Planet does not offer ice cream, milkshakes or sherbet. They offer shaved ice with mix-ins or toppings of a tiny scoop of vanilla ice cream (probably some supermarket brand), chocolate sauce, etc. As such, it’s completely misleading to imply they compete with the same products because they don’t. Further, we’re regular customers and have never seen anyone order anything other than shaved ice.

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:49 pm

      I’m pretty sure the folks here have figured out who you are…

      • blarrrgh says:
        Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 8:33 pm

        Umm… ok? I know that Ye Mighty glutenfree thinks I have something to do with Shave the Planet, which I assure you, I don’t. The financials of STP were posted in the previous Flyer story, with one of the commenters adding the specific number, I believe it was 12% down. So, whatever, I guess.

      • Innarested Observer says:
        Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:33 pm

        You should use those amazing deductive powers to anticipate how many games the Razorbacks will win this fall, then you could win enough money so that you could shrug off when your struggling business tries to game over successful ones.

  23. Franchisee in NWA says:
    Thursday, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:04 am

    I will not visit Shave The Planet anymore.

    Some of the statements made by their owners through the whole tv interview were sickening to me. I am an owner of 3 franchised businesses and 6 other business locations that operate as a franchise. For the Sieberts to villify the franchisees of Maggie Moos as they did was terrible. Maggie Moos isn’t a “big guy” chain. It is locally owned FRANCHISE. Maggie Moos owners are here employing and paying taxes all year in a location that pays taxes all year long.

    FYI, food trucks are HARD to keep up with for the “powers that be”. I will not eat from them. (I had a long history in the restaurant business). Food stands/ trucks have literally nothing to lose if they make you horribly ill. How often are these places inspected by the Health department? Stands can literally totally vanish without paying the correct amount of taxes since they are cash only. Do the employees accurately report the tips that are paid to them? That costs us as tax payer a lot of potential money. How are they being assessed their property and sales taxes?

    The local sign ordinances also seem to not be applied equally to the stands versus brick-and-mortar locations. This is a HUGE point of contention with me and other business owners in NWA.

    I worked in a snow cone stand in college. I know that it is fun to work in. Snow cones are “summer”, but they are also popping up everywhere, and will eventually become a problem. The real solution is a totally different ordinance that covers food vendors specifically, not just transient/temporary vendors in general.

    • vandelay says:
      Thursday, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:39 am

      More trash. I didn’t hear the interview with STP and I don’t have an opinion about them in particular, but I hear you and your accusatory, assumptive, condescending remarks. I’ve swiped my card at local food trucks; they are not cash-only. And there is paperwork required to be on file with the city, so they can’t easily dodge taxes. And why would you assume that they are less likely to report tips than a brick and mortar? Under-reporting tips is commonplace among restaurants in general, and I think everyone knows this. Food trucks are required to meet health dept standards. I’ve not heard of any rash (or even single incident) of illnesses caused by food trucks. You are just spreading more scare tactics. And by the way, you don’t get bonus points for staying in business year-round. I know you feel entitled, but it doesn’t mean jack shizzle.

      • Franchisee in NWA says:
        Thursday, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:14 pm

        vandelay-

        speak to ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about temporary/transient vendor businesses, and they will tell you that the lack of proper reporting is a huge concern with these business types. Fireworks stands, mobile food vendors, event vendors, etc. Not all food trucks take plastic. Shave the planet is cash only. There goes your argument for plastic, as they are a “party of interest” in this “keyboard cowboy” argument.

        When some of you actually OWN a business, you will understand. When you go through the stresses of the business, you will understand even more.

        NWA is an EXTREMELY difficult place to do business. 4 major municipalities with differing rules and regulations. You are going to run into nepotism, and cities that have nothing better to do than to cause trouble for the businesses that support the city. Fayetteville is the worst, by far. In the 4 states that I have had businesses operating in, this city has been the most difficult.

        I have seen them just put the tips in their pockets after using them to make change for the drawer. I talked to a young lady at the one by Jose’s about the tips. I can tell you that the tips are not being properly reported by the shave the planet employees. True, they are not alone in this category, as this is an industry-wide concern, and on that is being HIGHLY cracked down upon at the federal, state, and local level. However, the agencies focus on b&m locations, not stands and temp vendors. They are going to spend their time on companies that can’t really run from them, and companies with a larger presence, as most of these agencies are self-funded.

        My point about the food safety is this: If I get an inspection before I open, I will not see another inspector before I am closed for the season or gone to a new place. IF they even get one. Have you ever checked a mobile vendor for a license? It is a numbers game with the health dept. At least a b&m location has a LOT to lose if they lose a license. There is the lease or ownership cost of the building. I promise you that you can sell/move/get out from under a food cart/truck/storage-unit -turned-sno-cone-stand A LOT easier than you can a B&M location.

        Here is the other thing I don’t quite get here: So many people are playing the “champion of the little guy” role here. Maggie Moos is ONE location. Shave the Planet has 3 locations and was planning to open in Bentonville, before they were stonewalled there. That would be 4 locations, with an anticipated 5th next year. 5 locations is a quite successful operation that take you from being the little guy eeking out a living.

        I actually don’t care for Maggie Moos product. I do like a good sno cone, but my favorite frozen treat is Braums’ milkshake or Cherry Berry.

        As I said before, there needs to be a TOTALLY different process for “semi-permanent” food vendors vs transient vendors.

        So, what happens to the STP folks and the other sno-cone places when someone puts a sno-cone place in a retail center? Under current system, they will not be approved. There is plenty of vacant retail space in the matthias center at fiesta square. I’m sure sam would love to rent a space to a store that will pay rent all year. Then the condition under which both stands are granted a permit now would totally be gone, as there is a physical location selling the same product. Sno-Biz already sells in the mall in Auntie Ann’s.

        • Innarested Observer says:
          Thursday, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:26 pm

          Blah blah blah… a lot of allegations and accusations, no facts. You don’t know if anyone owns a business or not. We don’t even know if YOU own a business, since a request that you state them has gone unanswered.

          Then you make a slanderous, unprovable denigration of STP employees — who are basically all kids. “I can tell you that the tips are not being properly reported by the shave the planet employees.” How can you possibly know that? Answer: You cannot.

          And as if your credibility wasn’t already suspect enough, then you try to insinuate that there may be some food safety risks based on… what exactly?

          My advice is that you shouldn’t identify yourself after all, since you just blatantly defame and lie about another business.

        • Franchisee in NWA says:
          Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 1:58 pm

          I know because I asked.

          Tell me what business YOU own.

        • Innarested Observer says:
          Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 2:15 pm

          And still, you evade. I wonder why… I’ll show you mine if you show me yours…

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:52 pm

      FINALLY!!!! T-H-A-N-K- Y-O-U!!! you did a MUCH better job making the points that i did a very poor job of making!

  24. Innarested Observer says:
    Thursday, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:08 am

    Fran, if you’d care to share your businesses, I’d be happy to avoid them since that’s the way we’re all rolling.

  25. Informed voter says:
    Thursday, Jun 21, 2012 at 8:48 am

    Don’t forget this city approved airstream trailers as a business…..
    Gee Maggie Moos’ daddy was on the Planning commission then….

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 8:25 pm

      Yes, MaggieMoos daddy was on the Commission then. You should check out the tape of that meeting on the city website. Once you do, maybe you’ll feel inclined to come back and post your insinuation was unfounded. I won’t hold my breath.

  26. Are we still talking about this? says:
    Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    All this talk of sno-cones and ice cream made me jones for a frozen treat. Thankfully, I have popsicles and an internet connection so I can watch this train wreck without having to drive down to there. Seems some of y’all took that Hatfields & McCoy history channel mini-series a little too seriously.

    • Innarested Observer says:
      Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 6:24 pm

      Someone’s irony meter is broken… entering a response on a thread questioning why anyone is still talking about a thread…

  27. Alexander Dickey says:
    Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Mr. Hoskins… With all due respect. Bob Dylan once said.. You better start swimming or you’ll sink like a stone, for the times they are a changin’.
    There is a movement across the country empowering entrepreneurs with a little bit of capital to take a risk and start a business. It might be located in a trailer, considered a “mobile vendor” and not accepted by the old guard, but nonetheless, its a viable business. They generally have a slimmer business model that allows for lower overhead and larger profit margins. Most of the time the start up costs are significantly lower, adding to their feasibility and competitive advantage. It’s a free market, and there isn’t supposed to be a level playing field. The innovators, those that push the edge, are the ones that determine the grade on the field of battle. I find that to be a beautiful thing about capitalism, its ability revolutionize and completely change aspects of our society. It’s an incubator for creativeness.

    This appeal might succeed. However, as the city grows and more students attend the UofA it’s just a matter of time before mobile trailers find a permanent place in the city. The ordinance will change, citizens will always want a cheaper alternative, and food parks and trucks will one day run a plenty in Fayetteville. Then the market will change things again.

    Instead of fighting to keep the status quo, it might be more lucrative to embrace the movement, evolve, and open your own ice cream shop in an airstream and champion a new cause. The writing is on the wall, someone will..

    I respect you, and your position on the commission. However, I feel you’re out of touch with the market and the current trends across the country, and honestly fighting a losing battle. There are plenty of small towns across this country that witness a symbiotic relationship between mobile and mortar.
    I understand your arguments, but the times are a changin’. I hope you have that on vinyl.

    Until then, I honestly wish you the best of luck in your business matters, and this appeal.

    • Tracy Hoskins says:
      Friday, Jun 22, 2012 at 8:23 pm

      Alexander –
      I appreciate your comments. I actually agree with you 100%. Even though I know this issue is not good press for MaggieMoos, my appeal is not JUST about MaggieMoos. As a businessman and a Commissioner, my record clearly shows I support having mobile vendors but do not support them becoming semi-permanent businesses. Once a mobile vendor has been in the same spot year after year, and for an extended period each year, they are no longer in the category of a mobile vendor. They have become semi-permanent businesses. If we are to allow semi-permanent businesses, then we should have separate regulations (different from the mobile vendor) governing them. I think there’s a right time and place for both.
      I think in many cases, the “mobile” business model is a much better one than bricks and mortar. I am not knocking or even objecting to the business model or the low costs of opening or operating one. But, I think it would be sad if permanent businesses start shutting down to opt for the lower cost, much less regulated mobile business model.
      What I object to is when a mobile vendor is allowed to metamorphosis into a (semi) permanent business and gets a free pass on those requirements put on the bricks and mortar businesses and the ongoing costs associated with those requirements. I think if there’s going to be regulations placed on permanent businesses and their properties; the same should apply to semi-permanent businesses and the properties on which they do business. STP has become a semi-permanent business any way you look at it… IN MY OPINION. Great comments. Thank you.

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